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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2020, 09:40:49 AM »
Thomas,


I had an early period where I did a lot of mounds, thinking anything but sand was easier for average golfers, and anything with grass was harder for better players.  In playing my courses opening day and then many years beyond, I found average golfers really struggle with significant side hill lies, too.


I now suspect gentle humps are best.  Average players don't notice how the grades affect their shots.  As an architect, I still cut them, but they really don't know they are bleeding (strokes) anyway.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2020, 09:53:12 AM »

Interesting, just got this in my morning batch of stuff to read.  I think it mostly says about what I had been saying, with some differences.


https://www.wgolfd.com/insights/2020/6/8/do-golf-courses-really-need-bunkers?fbclid=IwAR1bs5nNezMWtreAQdX7jht5vDGtnw0rwHugztPs-6uB_jZyQx4i_LIDnyg
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2020, 11:22:44 AM »
Thanks for the link Jeff.

I have to disagree with the statement that golf courses without bunkers are visually bland and unappealing. The first course I spent a lot of time on was a Bill Diddel course with no bunkers (Bill made an effort to design interesting courses without bunkers during a period of his career). It was in what I would call a natural parkland. A combination of naturally treed land mixed with natural grassland. This kind of land is found a lot in the Rocky Mountain west. From pictures, I would classify Rock Creek Cattle Company to be on such land.

Also, have to wonder what playable was intended to mean in the article. Bunkers are intended to penalize the player, not to be as playable as the rest of the course.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark_Fine

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2020, 02:43:58 PM »
Let’s face it, ALL architects think they bunker their courses intelligently or why would they build them!  If there is a current trend it is to use less bunkers (cost to build, difficulty for players, less maintenance,...) but bunkers/hazards will always have a place in this game as without hazards golf would not really be golf. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2020, 03:34:44 PM »
Mark,


One of the reasons I like to think things out,  is that I am not so sure all architects do think about their philosophies and methods, at least not all architects and then not all of the time.


When I ask some (who shall remain nameless to protect the guilty) I get a wide variety of non answers.  I wonder if they do it because that is the way their mentor did it, that is how they did it the last five projects, that is the current perceived trend, etc.


The biggest one I ever got non answers for is "What are shot values?"  Most everyone answers, "Well, you know!"  The main reason I participate and write so much here is to sharpen my focus as to why I really do things.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2020, 03:53:44 PM »
Jeff,

I'm curious, "what are shot values?"...

The types of shots a sampling of players from varying skill levels may incur? 

Lou_Duran

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2020, 04:14:33 PM »
The biggest one I ever got non answers for is "What are shot values?"  Most everyone answers, "Well, you know!"  The main reason I participate and write so much here is to sharpen my focus as to why I really do things.


Not that I would suggest designing a course to please a rating panel, but Jonathan Cummings' "The Rating Game" goes into the various methodologies used by the magazines and covers such concepts as "shot values" well.  It is an interesting read, especially if one likes statistics and wishes to learn how to understand data (has much wider applications than golf).


Mark Fine,


The one that I always found extremely arrogant is "smart diplomacy".  Others: "nuanced", "thoughtful", "science-based", "data-driven", "high-conviction".  I guess that the suggestion is that the other type of bunkering is willy nilly, lacking intelligent consideration, mailed in.  ::) ::)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2020, 04:57:04 PM »
Lou,


Bought it, read it, liked it, recommend it highly.  I don't design for raters, and actually glossed over that section, being more interested in reading his design thoughts which actually seemed to me to be the bulk of the book, i.e., the ratings angle got him published as a unique take, but while he delves in, he delves in from a gca centered POV, at least IMHO.


Check your messages.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2020, 06:34:04 PM »
Design and bunkering are all a matter of opinion, so calling your bunkering intelligent is just kissing your own butt.

...
From Anatomy
“The bunker in the middle of the fairway is an especially controversial topic. It certainly should not be overused, but it is the ideal solution for a wide and flat landing area where a regular-width fairway with flanking bunkers would not fill the space. A single fairway bunker placed right where the golfer would most like to drive (or just off-center), with plenty of fairway around it on all sides, increases the interest of the hole tenfold."

This suspiciously sounds to me like an effort to define intelligent placement of bunkers.

So who's butt were you kissing on 2, 12, and 16 at Pacific Dunes? ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2020, 07:49:05 PM »
Jeff,

I'm curious, "what are shot values?"...

The types of shots a sampling of players from varying skill levels may incur?

Ask 10 people and you will get 8 answers.  I never liked the phrase...its right up there with the course makes you use all the clubs in the bag and the course must be great because it produces great champions  ::) 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2020, 10:00:01 AM »
Jeff,

I'm curious, "what are shot values?"...

The types of shots a sampling of players from varying skill levels may incur?


Well, I'm just one architect, and most of my brethren will probably tell you I'm cuckoo for coca puffs.  But, I solidified my thoughts on it when working with various tour pros over the years, who were remarkably consistent on what they thought were good shot values.  Average players have a much different set of shot values to consider, as well.


I know not everyone here would agree with the pros and top players!  But, the general consensus is:


A target should be attainable with a good shot.  It doesn't have to be with their favorite shot pattern, but about half of them should be.  A nice balance either rewards a player who can truly hit all the shots, and rewards those with a favored shot pattern about equally to others.

Targets should reflect the physics, i.e., downwind greens longer to account for less spin, headwind greens wider but shallower than they "should be" (according to the USGA rating guide) to account for increased wind deflection, but also more backspin helping to hold greens, etc.  No long irons off downhill lies to uphill greens, etc.  Perhaps the short version is, there are certain physics in golf, and architects who don't know golf often inadvertently create shots where the physics basically deny the ability to complete it successfully.

A good player will use everything at his/her disposal to minimize disaster increase chances of positive results. 


They like all the factors they can use to align to clarify the type of shot to hit. Aligning as many factors as possible on any one shot that suggest a shot pattern.  A course with a variety of strongly suggested shot patterns is one that is rewarding "all the shots." As one said, what do you do if you come to an intersection with a stop sign and a green light? 


He also said, "There's smarter guys that me, but if the ground slopes right, the wind blows right and the target angles right, I think I'll hit a fade." They dislike it when there are strong fade signals, but the target is set up for a draw (or, to not be discriminatory to any lefties, a right to left shot)

Getting in closer, they believe there should always be a way, even if it takes a perfect shot, to get the ball close to the hole.  I have seen a few complain about a pin position near a knob where a short iron fade kicks away and so does a short iron draw, so they can't get a shot near the hole in any case.  Some go so far as to walk around greens and ask "what if I hit it here? I've got no chance.  I can usually convince them that not every missed side of the green can, or should, provide equally doable recovery shots.  Whew!

There's more, but those are the thoughts I gathered most over the years. Or, in another way to say it, use hazards to strongly suggest a favorable shot pattern, not just randomly punish misses.  And, if you read Mac, Tillie, and Thomas among others, they kind of say similar things in more stilted old fashion language.

Jack Nicklaus also codified some of the above with a statement that, "The course should never intentionally hurt you."  A bad shot deserves bad results, but a good one, that should be rare.  (Obviously, like on the Rolling Green/Gary Player thread, the definition of a good shot varies.  But, there should be at least one way to hold a green, shouldn't there?)

All, JMO, of course.  But, that is what I have learned good players look for, consistently enough to be incorporated in my design philosophy.  Special thanks to Jim Colbert and Notah Begay III, both of who could articulate those kind of things.  Many pros are more intuitive and can tell when they don't like something, but rarely can clearly explain exactly why, and I have to drag it out of them.


Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2020, 03:02:11 PM »
Jeff,
This is what is in my opinion one of the greatest aspects of golf, the varied playing fields (and the different shot values that goes with them).  There are no two courses or two holes exactly the same and all present different problems to solve and challenges to deal with.  Some we think are ideal and some we question (as in the Rolling Green thread), but that variety is what makes the game so great. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2020, 04:00:06 PM »
Mark,


Apparently Gary Player doesn't think so, LOL.   :)   


That said, I have heard very few decent players who think hitting the ball 10 feet from the hole (or whatever) and having it roll 40 yards off the green is good design, variety or not.  Yes, they are more concerned with score than trying an interesting shot for the heck of it, but that is what the rules of golf presume we are all doing.  It would be cool if they added some rule allowing something for those architecture nerds to get relief from trying what is otherwise, really, really stupid shots.


In my experience, Jack's notion that the course should never hurt you purposely (or inadvertently) is almost universal enough to be considered consensus.  We'll never eliminate rub of the green, but very few think we should design it in, either.  I assume some small doses that creep in are found acceptable to most. Others, like Mr. Player, would probably pull the trigger on renovations quicker than most, but who knows.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2020, 04:18:18 PM »
Jeff,

Thank you for taking the time to put all that in a post.

I suppose it sounds like plausibly good stuff to include as a definition, but with a couple of caveats.

1)  How does one translate that into a meaningful elevator pitch response, much less try to quantify it for a rating?
2)  I understand TPs are high profile celebs, but given they account for such a tiny fraction of actual play on a course, why would their opinion count much?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2020, 05:09:59 PM »
Kalen,


Well low handicappers say the same thing, again, remarkably consistently, at least in my experience.  For my presentations, I use Colbert's "If the wind blows right, lie slopes right and target angles right, I think I'll hit a fade" as a basis.  I don't care about ratings.  As far as I can tell, the USGA course rating system is on obstacles, but I focus on trying to create a variety of shots, even knowing that most players try to fit their favored shot into a target.  And, the statisticians say you are better off with one shot pattern, with a tighter dispersion pattern, but I digress.


For years, the design philosophy was to design for better players, and accommodate average ones.  I think many of us are drifting away from that notion and forgetting the Tour Pros, especially on public courses.  That said, there are a lot of design features that "punish" good players and aren't so bad on average ones.  Lateral bunkers are one.  Good players tend to miss left to right more, average ones need more target depth, and really don't miss much more than good players laterally, so the "bunker left, bunker right" (providing that bunker doesn't come too far forward from the green, especially on the right) works for each level player about equally. 


Carry bunkers kill average players, and don't trouble good ones, one reason they went out of style. (And, pros hate them, too, but I don't know why.  The never understand a "cape hole" with a sand bunker in place of water.  What if I come up short?  They think the bunkers should be all lateral, so go figure.


Again, just my experience.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2020, 05:39:21 PM »
Kalen,

For years, the design philosophy was to design for better players, and accommodate average ones.  I think many of us are drifting away from that notion and forgetting the Tour Pros, especially on public courses.  That said, there are a lot of design features that "punish" good players and aren't so bad on average ones. 

Again, just my experience.

Jeff,

I've certainly played more than a handful of courses that would fit that description. However, it seems the drift away is a step in the right direction, especially when you consider an average public course:

1)  Will likely never have a TP step foot on it, much less play it.
2)  Very good ams maybe once a year in a state qualifier or other tournament.
3)  Low single digit handicappers occasionally.

I would guess 80-90% of the rounds on these courses will be played by all manner of double digits cappers, so it seems to logically follow they would be designed primarily for them.

P.S.  This quote from Cool Runnings seems to fit:  ;)

"All I'm saying, mon, is if we walk Jamaican, talk Jamaican, and is Jamaican, then we sure as hell better bobsled Jamaican."

Peter Pallotta

Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2020, 05:40:32 PM »
Really good series of posts, Jeff - thanks.
Your reference to the 'physics of golf' resonated with me - not because I understand physics but because maybe what we consider beautiful and/or natural and/or classic in golf course design is actually a reflection of the fundamental physics of the game...which most of us 'see' only unconsciously & intuitively.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2020, 06:41:55 PM »
Kalen,

Agree completely, but I can't count the number of times I have been on a site walk, and someone mentions something about, "What would happen if the Tour Pros show up?" Or, "If we have a tournament, we need the 18th hole to sit just below the clubhouse.  Designing for the PGA Tour is complete crap, but pervasive in many design discussions.

My answer is usually something like, "What if the man from Mars shows up to play? What do we do about him?"   ;)

Peter,

Thanks.  Yes, the role of the gca is to take all the art, all the knowledge of golf and how it is played, and somehow translate that via engineering into something that works.  in playability, there are enough studies out there to tell us how far the blue tee player will hit their drives, how much of that is roll and how much is carry, how many and how far are they likely to slice/hook, roll out once they hit the green, etc.

But, even something as intuitive as "water runs downhill" needs a bit more fleshing out.  How much size and slope does a pipe need to carry the water that will go in it?  How much slope on overland drainage will cause erosion?   How much grass seed do we need, etc.

No one told me there would be math...... ;) :D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach