17th hole Harbour Town

[Rob Marshall]

I would love to hear the professionals breakdown a hole. Ran posted the 17th at Harbour Town and said it may be one of Pete Dye's best. I've played it 4 or 5 times from both tees so I'm very familiar with the hole. What makes it one of Mr. Dye's best?

[Steve Kohler]

I've played the hole and am familiar with many other Pete Dye courses (both in person and from TV/internet).  Perhaps it's considered the "very best" because of its setting and long-running exposure as the penultimate hole of a Tour event. 

I would not count it among the very best of Dye.  It's a solid hole with a fantastic backdrop, placed in the middle of a strong stretch of holes 16-17-18.  But even on that course, I find 7 and 14 to be equally as interesting par 3's.  When compared against some of Dye's other "notable" par 3's, I would not put it in the same company as holes like the 17th at Sawgrass, 3rd at The Golf Club, 5 at Casa de Campo, etc.

[jeffwarne]

I never felt a whole lot of love for 17 at HT,
I don't think it's in his Top 5 on Hilton Head, or even the best at HT-especially given the incredible setting.
But then I don't have a fraction of Mr. Dyes knowledge either -he was always fascinating to talk to on his visits to Long Cove.
I always thought 8 at Long Cove was such a cool hole(especially back when  3 irons went 200 yards)
I was always torn between 13 and 8 at LC as the best on Hilton Head I had played-especially the contrast beteen the two-(of course my first ace ever was on #2 at LC with a 2 iron:))
but he has many great par 3's.


The genius in hole 17 at HT could be its awkwardness, which may be why I never embraced it.

[Rob Marshall]

Steve, I also like the 14th. I remember watching the telecast and Peter Kostis saying the 14th hole was built to be a nine iron. Remember sitting six which may be a nine iron for the tour pros now.


Jeff, Why do you think it's awkward? I play a draw so from the right tee box it might be slightly awkward for me but  I think it fits my shot shape from the left tee box.

[Mark_Fine]

Rob,
Harbour Town is like a home course for me as we spend a lot of time in Hilton Head and I play it often.  I am a big fan of the entire golf course and the par threes there are all excellent.  That said, they will all appeal in different ways to different golfers.  I think the 7th is the most controversial as you have a basically blind green (tough to see much of the surface) with "bunkers in the sky" as RTJ called them guarding the entire green site.  It is very possible you could be in the surrounding bunker and have a tree blocking your line to the hole.  It is a very unique hole and fun to play but not in the league of #17.  The 17th is stunning to look at and can be terrifying to play at the same time.  It is not long but the skyline green coupled with its orientation and the surrounding bunker/marsh on the left and back along with the deep narrow coffin shaped bunker that guards the right makes for all that any golfer can handle (especially when the wind is up).  Also you get different looks depending on high or low tide.  It is one of the most satisfying feelings to safely land your tee shot on that green.  It's order in the rotation is perfect as well knowing you also have the exceptional 18th to follow to finish off your round.  When I have a good round going, those two holes play on my mind (as Pete wanted them to do) as you know they have to be dealt with to finish off your score/match.  On a scale of 1-10 of what I have seen around the world, the 17th is a 10 and I don't hand those out lightly. 


Jeff,
I play Long Cove a lot as well. Might be my favorite course on the island and underrated in the rankings.  #8 is excellent (fantastic contoured green) and a demanding long tee shot especially from the tips.  #13 is special as well but I don't put it in the category of #17 at HT.  #13 is pretty and fun to play (short iron to a fairly large green) but it doesn't spark the same emotion or excitement as the 17th. 
 

[Anthony_Nysse]

I never felt a whole lot of love for 17 at HT,
I don't think it's in his Top 5 on Hilton Head, or even the best at HT-especially given the incredible setting.
But then I don't have a fraction of Mr. Dyes knowledge either -he was always fascinating to talk to on his visits to Long Cove.
I always thought 8 at Long Cove was such a cool hole(especially back when  3 irons went 200 yards)
I was always torn between 13 and 8 at LC as the best on Hilton Head I had played-especially the contrast beteen the two-(of course my first ace ever was on #2 at LC with a 2 iron:))
but he has many great par 3's.


The genius in hole 17 at HT could be its awkwardness, which may be why I never embraced it.

I think in general, Pete doesn't get enough credit for his par 3's. There is a 25 year window of his career where most of the par 3's he built on his courses were very good. Long Cove has a really good set of 3's, so does Colleton River & Harbor Town. Old Marsh has a good set of 3's, as does Honors, TPC, Casa de Campo, Kiawah & Pete Dye GC. Hardly a knock on any of the 3's at those places.


As for #13 at LC-Best natural setting for a green on HHI. Only, only issue I every saw was that the green is relatively shallow, therefore the hole can play the same length more often than not. The left side was never used enough, IMO.

[Mark_Fine]

Anthony,
You are correct on all counts.  Regarding #13, I have played LC dozens of times and I agree with you, I can't ever remember the left side of that green being used.  What I have found though is that it is almost always a similar shot unlike #17 at Harbour Town which can vary much more dramatically depending on the wind.  #13 hangs out there on a beautiful natural setting but is more protected where as #17 is completely exposed.  Both are excellent holes. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

The genius in hole 17 at HT could be its awkwardness, which may be why I never embraced it.

I think its awkwardness is part of its greatness. Each pinnable area has its own problem whether it is the water, the bunker, or even over, which carries with its own penalty. I played it in a pro-am with Palmer in 1986.
the pin was back left and he hit it to three feet with a shot that landed a bit short and right then spinned left and ran out. I have played the hole half a dozen times with pins from the front to back. I love the hole, although I probably have parred only half the time.

[Tim Liddy]

To me #17 is unique for its position in the routing as well as its shot balance with the other set of par 3’s. First the routing. It is pure genius that Mr. Dye change the original routing, shifting #17 and #18 from the interior of the site out to Calibogue Sound with the beautiful expansive long views. So effective after being compressed on the previous 16 holes. Just think how dull the golf course would be if it stayed inside the original tree line and returning to the clubhouse as originally planned.

Then you have #17 and its relationship to the other par 3’s. If you research past golf magazine ratings you will discover this set of par 3’s have long been considered the best anywhere. Their shot Balance of #4 (R to L), #7 (L to R), #14 (L to R) and #17 (R to L) as well as Size are precursors to PGA tour shot dispersion patterns used today. Functionality and art combined in a most beautiful settings. Golf architecture at its best.

[Matt Kardash]

As Tim says where its location is in the routing is a big factor.Also, just look at the hole, it's gorgeous.In 1969 there was nothing in the world of golf that looked anything like this hole....yet it definitely has a little bit of Raynor in there, but with an entirely new spin.

[Wade Whitehead]

17 looks so different during a regular round than it does during the tournament.

Normally, it's difficult to pick an aiming point (which I like) and the wind can gust at that point on the property (which I like).

The infrastructure that is built around and next to it change both of those when the Tour comes to town.

WW

[Bob Simons]

To me #17 is unique for its position in the routing as well as its shot balance with the other set of par 3’s. First the routing. It is pure genius that Mr. Dye change the original routing, shifting #17 and #18 from the interior of the site out to Calibogue Sound with the beautiful expansive long views. So effective after being compressed on the previous 16 holes. Just think how dull the golf course would be if it stayed inside the original tree line and returning to the clubhouse as originally planned.

Then you have #17 and its relationship to the other par 3’s. If you research past golf magazine ratings you will discover this set of par 3’s have long been considered the best anywhere. Their shot Balance of #4 (R to L), #7 (L to R), #14 (L to R) and #17 (R to L) as well as Size are precursors to PGA tour shot dispersion patterns used today. Functionality and art combined in a most beautiful settings. Golf architecture at its best.

Tim,


I never knew about the original intended routing. Where were 17 and 18 supposed to be?

[Tim Liddy]

Bob,


18 was originally planned to be adjacent and parallel to 10. Sounds like you need an idea for a Christmas present?. Mr Dye describes the development of Harbour Town as well as many other great golf courses in Bury Me in a Pot Bunker. I think you will enjoy the book and will make an ideal gift.

[Bill Gayne]

To me the beauty and challenge of HT are the green complexes and the greens within the greens. This is certainly true of the 17th hole. The last time I played the course the pin was back left. I hit my shot just short of the green front right which left a fairly easy chip for a par. One of my playing partners hit a pin high shot that rolled off the back into the deep swale behind the left portion of the green leaving himself a slightly downhill lie. Hit a fantastic little chip but it still ran 10 ft by and walked off with the bogey. I'm not sure the putt would've been a better option.


HT for such a narrow course is surprisingly strategic and requires superior thought and skill around the greens.

[Bob Simons]

Bob,


18 was originally planned to be adjacent and parallel to 10. Sounds like you need an idea for a Christmas present?. Mr Dye describes the development of Harbour Town as well as many other great golf courses in Bury Me in a Pot Bunker. I think you will enjoy the book and will make an ideal gift.

Thanks for the suggestion Tim!

[Jason Topp]

A big factor on 17 is that you are exposed to wind after being sheltered by trees up to that point. 

[Carl Nichols]

Did Mr. Dye ever talk about wanting 17th holes to be par 3s?  It seems like on many of his well known courses--e.g., Kiawah, Sawgrass, Harbour Town, Whistling Straits, Long Cove, Blackwolf Run (River)--the 17th is a par 3.  Obviously there are fewer than 9 options for 2 par 3's on the back if you don't want to finish on a par 3 (and if you don't want 10 to be one either), but it still seems intentional.   

[Anthony_Nysse]

Did Mr. Dye ever talk about wanting 17th holes to be par 3s?  It seems like on many of his well known courses--e.g., Kiawah, Sawgrass, Harbour Town, Whistling Straits, Long Cove, Blackwolf Run (River)--the 17th is a par 3.  Obviously there are fewer than 9 options for 2 par 3's on the back if you don't want to finish on a par 3 (and if you don't want 10 to be one either), but it still seems intentional.   

Come to think of it-


Dye Preserve, Crooked Stick, Austin CC, Oak Tree, PGA West, River Highlands, Ford Plantation, Mystic Rock to name a few more.

[Matthew Petersen]

I believe Dye liked to get a a par 5, a par 3, and a par 4 in the final trio of holes, in whatever order they worked out. I'm not familiar with him building many par 3 18th holes, so yeah, he has a lot of par 3s at 17, but other times it would work out to be the 16th (La Quinta Mountain, La Quinta Dunes, Honors Course, ASU Karsten, Citrus Club, Carmel Valley Ranch, French Lick, Promontory, and many others).

[Matt Kardash]

Since the 18h hole is basically never a par 3, that means 16 or 17 being a par 3 is almost 50%. So I don't find it shocking when someone says an designer had a lot of par 3 17th's

[Matt MacIver]

The 17th has a great scar bunker right of the green, the width of a few dollar bills (ok, well). Depending on where the pin is you may not have a swing anywhere near the pin - like my playing partner.  His only swing and shot left him a 25 foot putt - which he made!  So being in that bunker MAY be a half shot penalty, even for a pro, if they’re left for a long par putt. IF you think that could be a problem you’d want to play away from that bunker and miss left - no picnic.

[A.G._Crockett]

FWIW, I thought/think the par 3's at Harbour Town constitute the coolest set of 3's on any course I've ever played in my life.  Visually delightful, fun to play, highly variable depending on the pin position and the wind; just great stuff.