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Ran Morrissett

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Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country New
« on: March 13, 2020, 05:52:41 PM »
https://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/dormie-club/

When people say they like or don’t like a course, they often times are referring to their own experience based on their most recent play, with comments weighted toward the experience as opposed to the architecture. That is perfectly understandable. Indeed, who doesn’t want to skate through life, going from one great experience to another?! Yet, this is a golf architecture web site and we are supposed to drill down on the architectural components that make a course resonate – or not. That’s what I do with this Dormie profile – keep the focus on the architectural elements.

This profile is fifteen years in the making. A friend was involved from the outset at Dormie and he and I would periodically go find Bill Coore out in the woods roaming the property in 2005. Eventually, holes 4 and 15-18 opened for play as a teaser for what was to come. We played those five holes 40+ times and a feeling was always engendered that Dormie was going to be something special. Then the financial recession hit, construction was halted for a period, and when the course opened, outside play was welcome. A modest cabin was used as the clubhouse and I LOVED IT.

Unfortunately, few shared my same feelings. For sure, the walk was disjointed as the golfer needed to dart into the woods too often to walk on cart paths to cross wetlands. Maybe I am sulking because people didn’t agree with my high opinion. Certainly, parking in a makeshift gravel/dirt parking lot, checking in the modest cabin, and being told there was no drinking water on the course kept expectations in check.

After five + years of being open for play, I was surprised by something: the course’s presentation remained at a high standard. The course had to exist on its own generated cash flow and I was waiting for there to be a drop in playing conditions (i.e. this would be the northern hemisphere’s version of St. Andrews Beach as in great design, poorly presented). That never happened. Dormie has had one Green Keeper its entire life and Billy Lewis deserves huge applause for how he held things together. You want to know the chops of a Green Keeper? Give him a limited budget and see what he defines as important. Dormie has never overseeded and its dormant Bermuda fairways are superb at releasing the ball November through March. It’s my favorite time to play there as Coore’s lay of the land design aspects really sparkle.

After my beloved Southern Pines CC, I have played more rounds at Dormie in the past ten years than anywhere else locally. Still, I never profiled it, primarily because the walk was too gummy and therefore, hard to endorse directing people here. However, Dormie has been under the Dormie Network ownership for two years and they have just engaged someone to build the required footbridges this year. Plus, the cabin has been demolished and a modern (stylishly rustic) clubhouse is now being built. The experience will soon match the perceived quality of the design, IMO.

Hence, the timing of this profile. GolfClubAtlas’s own curmudgeon (J.C. Jones from Charlotte) drove over in January. He had last played Dormie in 2012 and warming up, he didn’t disappoint, complaining about this and that about the course. As I listened (what else can you do when he gets going?  ;) ), I reserved judgement because some of his criticisms didn’t appear valid. After the round, he was naturally morose about his team’s loss  ;D but here is what he later wrote me:

In my opinion, the land, holes and strategy shine at Dormie along with the setting and the “good hike in the woods” aspect of the course. Dormie is mentally and physically challenging in a serene place that has a wonderful aesthetic. Shot selection and placement from the tee through the green is Pete Dye-esque in that it presents a wonderful puzzle on all fronts. It doesn’t have the pacing or the flow or the elegance and grace of #2 or Mid Pines. It’s a golf course that, to me, conjures images of Teddy Roosevelt in boots with set of clubs headed off into the forest. It’s masculine. It’s rugged in the way it challenges the golfer to execute and endure.  Your description of deer trails and hunting are apt. What changed for me in the 8 years between plays is that the course, perhaps through the benefit of not having had any money, got to really settle into the landscape and presents itself, and the strategy of the holes, in an honest manner without any pretension. The course shines as a presentation of the amazing land on which it sits and it does so in a mature manner that makes you feel as though the course is a part of the place and not a course that’s been imposed on the land.  It’s almost as if it’s gone back to being hunting land. And that’s a good thing.  I’ve always felt that the best courses reflect their geography.  Dormie does that.

JC isn’t a fan of a couple of the longer walks (especially 6th green to 7th tee) and I like the routing more than he does but he and I agree on one thing: The thought of playing 36 holes isn’t high on our list. However, at age 56, I place less and less importance on that. I love Royal Hague, for instance, to the nth degree but I am not going up and down those dunes twice in a day. One round is plenty of exercise for this Old Goat.

Anyway, I will be curious how/if the perception of Dormie changes as the Coore design is surrounded and embellished by some of the finer trappings. What’s indisputable is that Dormie represents a Coore routing over sandy soil and rugged topography. Plus, I contend these green complexes are in Coore’s top five as a set.  :o That’s a big call but after 100 rounds of various putting debacles, it is one I am willing to make. Add in the Green Keeper’s efforts to have the ball release and you have a design whose full potential is now being realized.


Best,
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 07:58:33 AM by Ran Morrissett »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2020, 06:40:34 PM »
Ran,


Your love of this course is one of the important reasons I remain a member of the Dormie Network. While I still have never made it down there to play the following video of the clubhouse to be constructed makes my eventual appearance inevitable. Thanks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxcN63QSqxE&feature=youtu.be

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2020, 09:07:50 PM »
Unfortunately, few shared my same feelings. For sure, the walk was disjointed as the golfer needed to dart into the woods too often to walk on cart paths to cross wetlands. Maybe I am sulking because people didn’t agree with my high opinion. Certainly, parking in a makeshift gravel/dirt parking lot, checking in the modest cabin, and being told there was no drinking water on the course kept expectations in check.
I view those things as positives that enhanced how the course "felt." I don't mind a little walk now and then, and I loved the clubhouse. I liked parking in a small gravel parking lot - it felt as "golfy" and "minimalist" and otherwise as good as it gets. A paved parking lot with spaces for last year's club champion doesn't scream "golf destination" to me.

Plus, the cabin has been demolished and a modern (stylishly rustic) clubhouse is now being built.

What?!?! Oh, man. I hope the replacement maintains the same feel.

Edit: watching the video JK posted. Hmmmm.


P.S. I last played it in December, and walked it with a push cart. It was one of the most enjoyable days on a golf course in recent memory. I look forward to reading the article, Ran.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 09:19:37 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2020, 03:50:51 AM »
Wow!

Atb

Mark Stewart

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2020, 12:06:05 PM »
I love the 10th hole.


Sometimes, when playing golf, you just have to hit the shot.

Tim Martin

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2020, 04:21:16 PM »
17 is a fantastic sub 500 yard par five.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2020, 10:50:50 PM »
Ran: This is where I become befuddled by your love for Dormie which I definitely share, while you also have a deep love for Tobacco Road, which I definitely do not share.  You express your love for Coore's routing of Dormie and how it flows with the land and is such a pleasant and enjoyable walk as compared to Tobacco Road which to me is a creation designed to stimulate visually and little else.  Perhaps one day I will understand TR but until then I will take Dormie anytime over TR.

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2020, 03:54:46 AM »
quote
I love the 10th hole.

Mark--

Interesting.  I am a big fan of Dormie, with the exception of #10.  Common lore in Pinehurst is that the original owners filled in wetlands that crosses the fairway and the EPA (or NC equivalent) caught them red handed and forced then to restore it (this is the "creek" that crosses the fairway just before the Principal's Nose and presents a really tough carry on 2nd shot.  My sense is that the carry on second shot is simply too long (and I have heard some very long scratch and play players say the same thing form back tees).  Problem is if you can't carry the creek (or have real doubts) you are forced to play right (on this DL left) and you lately are playing away from the green because of the angles

While interesting, I think it places too much of a premium on length...but to each his own.  I have heard Bill Coore has been back a number of times trying to devise a solution

Best
Paul



Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2020, 04:00:41 AM »
Ran: This is where I become befuddled by your love for Dormie which I definitely share, while you also have a deep love for Tobacco Road, which I definitely do not share.  You express your love for Coore's routing of Dormie and how it flows with the land and is such a pleasant and enjoyable walk as compared to Tobacco Road which to me is a creation designed to stimulate visually and little else.  Perhaps one day I will understand TR but until then I will take Dormie anytime over TR.


Jerry--To me TR is a brilliant mind game and challenge.  There are about a dozen shots that tempt the player into trying a carry that requires a perfect shot (best example is 2nd shot on 11 I think).  There are always good bailout plays...but the temptation creates the mind game.  First few times I played it I would simply blow up on a few holes.  In my old age I have learned to play it smart and the course is score able.

Best
Paul

Roman Schwarz

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2020, 11:17:37 AM »
quote
I love the 10th hole.

Mark--

Interesting.  I am a big fan of Dormie, with the exception of #10.  Common lore in Pinehurst is that the original owners filled in wetlands that crosses the fairway and the EPA (or NC equivalent) caught them red handed and forced then to restore it (this is the "creek" that crosses the fairway just before the Principal's Nose and presents a really tough carry on 2nd shot.  My sense is that the carry on second shot is simply too long (and I have heard some very long scratch and play players say the same thing form back tees).  Problem is if you can't carry the creek (or have real doubts) you are forced to play right (on this DL left) and you lately are playing away from the green because of the angles

While interesting, I think it places too much of a premium on length...but to each his own.  I have heard Bill Coore has been back a number of times trying to devise a solution

Best
Paul



I've had endless discussions with other regulars on what we'd do to the 10th with an infinite budget.  Given that the 2 major problems with the hole are (a) the (lack of) size of the landing area behind the wetlands and (b) that the ground in front of the green is not firm enough to run something onto the green, moving the green has been a common thought.  The most fanciful thought might have been to put the green somewhere around where the principal's nose is and then turn 11 into a boomerang par 5 akin to Waterloo and Azalea.
But, as in many cases the right answer is probably the simplest and most obvious.  Tee forward from where you normally play.  I played once with a scratch bomber, and the strategy played perfectly for him, even from the tips.  Bringing the 1st finger of wetlands into play off the tee, he had a clean shot to put his second to the left of the principal's nose, and then a wedge into the green.  If you play safely out to the right, taking the long way is really the only play.  If you're close enough to the wetlands, there's more room short of the bunker than you think as well.
I typically play the blue tee, but I've begun playing from the white on 10 every time.  Having a long iron instead of a wood in hand for the 2nd makes that landing area much more palatable.  You could play a wood up further at the green, but the angle is terrible...a "draw that doesn't draw" puts you in the creek on the right.  Playing it that way starts to highlight more how good that green is.  Just when you think you're home free because you're just off the green in 3, the trap is set.
For the record, 17 plays better for many by moving up a box as well.  From the blue, I'm never tempted to go for it in 2, but from the white I do.  My stroke average may be higher for it, which is on me and not Mr. Coore.

Edward Glidewell

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2020, 07:43:52 PM »
I've only played Dormie Club once, but absolutely loved it.


I enjoyed every single hole (didn't have an issues with the 10th) and don't remember thinking anything needed a change, although you often have to play somewhere multiple times to notice more subtle issues.

ward peyronnin

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2020, 06:26:58 PM »
Jerry
I share your opinion of TR. To me it is a gimmicky confusing and awkward blind golf on steroids track/ I like other Stranz courses and I do abide in quircky or i wouldn't be a member of Cruden bay. But I simply find Tr no fun to play unless one gets lucky. As i have said the par five followed by the raised tee for the par three fast against an asphalt plant is unredeemable. Dormie is a big brawnie course in front of oyu place and not for everyone but conquerable for the willing and focused
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Joe Bausch

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2020, 04:40:36 AM »
I really enjoyed this review (these days I have more time to read cover to cover a review since courses in my area are closed).  I was fortunate to play DC in early March of 2015 with my gang of golfers from Villanova.  On that trip we also played PH No 2, 4 and 8.  And I had the most fun at Dormie.

I have tuned-up my photo album from that visit and you might find it supplements Ran's enjoyable read:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/DormieClub/index.html

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

David Davis

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2020, 04:43:23 PM »
Wait, Ran are you only 56  ???


Ah you must of wrote this in 2012 I get it.


Have to say I really enjoy Dormie and find it a very pleasant and easy walk - can't believe you compare it to Royal Hague which, while a nice walk is a roller coaster compared to Dormie.


Had my first and only hole in 1 at Dormie, what's not to like.



Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Carl Nichols

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2020, 08:39:32 PM »
Does anyone have recent pictures but when the bermuda wasn't dormant?  Would be curious to see the contrast.

Sean_A

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2020, 04:58:28 AM »
Ran: This is where I become befuddled by your love for Dormie which I definitely share, while you also have a deep love for Tobacco Road, which I definitely do not share.  You express your love for Coore's routing of Dormie and how it flows with the land and is such a pleasant and enjoyable walk as compared to Tobacco Road which to me is a creation designed to stimulate visually and little else.  Perhaps one day I will understand TR but until then I will take Dormie anytime over TR.

Interesting Jerry. I don't find the walk at either course among my favourites. Both are disjointed for their own reasons. Although, I think the Dormie issues are largely resolvable.

I like Dormie, but feel like some of the riskier design choices don't work very well.

Ran...very fine!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Foley

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2020, 01:44:15 PM »
Love Love Love Dormie.


Glad to see the nice write up on #15. Always liked that hole especially where it fell in the routing. Simple yet demanding par 3.


I'm good w/ the par 3's 9 & 12 but both greens teeter on the edge of too much interior movement given their size.


#1 is as good an opener there is. Love the green.


As for #10, I think the forward tee is the better play (as least for my skills). But what I LOVE about this hole it demands at some point you need to hit a FW wood or hybrid precisely to make it on in regulation. Not sure there are many holes that require that.


Thanks for the great write up.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2020, 09:57:44 AM »
I was wondering if imagining the wetlands on #10 as water would somehow give one better insight of how the hole can be better played or better viewed to determine if there is a way to improve it.  For some reason this change of image has helped me better understand some holes in the past.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2020, 10:06:55 AM »
I've played Dormie Club two times now, and I've enjoyed number 10 each time. I think it's a tough par five, a true three-shot hole. I've hit a 3W across (and past the nose bunker) both times, and had a partial pitching wedge to the green both times. I've played with two people who had to go around to the right, and one who pushed his tee shot so far right he laid up and went across the fat part of the wetlands.

I'll agree that it's one of the weaker holes on a very solid course, but I don't think it's as poor a hole as many others seem to feel. The tee shot is important - left without going too far left, and long enough to have a clear line across. Then the second shot must avoid the nose bunker. The third is played to a green that slants away from you.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Willie_Dow

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country New
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2020, 10:08:55 AM »
Ran, this takes me back to the day Paul Oglesby got me a Jeep, and we toured the building of the first nine.  My how I loved the feeling of nature surrounding that environment.  Wasn't there some question of the lake being dug for a water supply ?


How did this work out ?


After reading, and seeing Joe Bausch's "Photo Album", from 3/2015,  (which is always beyond comparison),  I see that the lake is there !  What a great job was done, and I would love to know at what cost !  (How would that cost apply to today's figure ?)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 06:30:56 PM by Willie_Dow »

Shelly Jones

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2020, 01:28:02 PM »
I concur with Ran's assessment of Dormie's architecture and conditioning. I have always been impressed by the topography and the fact that Coore did not try to enhance or embellish it. Instead, he draped the course on the topography.


I, too, will miss the very rustic charm of its early days. I liked the old clubhouse (rather a euphemism for a one room abode) and the parking was a hoot!!


I played Dormie just before playing Tobacco Road. The difference in architectural styles could not be more starkly portrayed.

Keith Phillips

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Re: Dormie Club profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2020, 05:04:06 PM »
I've been to Pinehurst 3x and played Dormie twice.  I LOVE the golf course.  I prefer it to MidPines, Pine Needles, #8 and CCNC, all of which are really strong.  What a great neighborhood for golf!

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