[Peter Pratt]

'Nuff said, Mike!

[THuckaby2]

Peter:  

There is a dissenting view.

In answer to Mike's question....

Because Muirfield is FAR FAR FAR from a "trophy" and is in fact itself the real thing, with North Berwick being a very very very fun pretender.

Why not do both?

Muirfield is quite difficult to access, but not impossible.  See Bill McBride's thread re Painswick for a painfully detailed discussion of all this.  

TH

[Robert Thompson]

Peter: I led a group of four golfers to Scotland for an intinerary that included Turnberry, Kingsbarns, Carnoustie, St. Andrews (Old and New), Murcar, Cruden Bay, Dornoch, Brora and Gleneagles.

Yes, it was a lot of driving.
And yes, it was worth all that time spent on the road.

We used Carnoustie as our headquarters for four days -- playing to Kingsbarns, St. Andrews, Carnoustie while we stayed there and then did the drive north and played Murcar and Cruden Bay on the same day. That night we did the drive to Dornoch -- it took more than 3 hours.

Was Dornoch worth the drive? I don't think there was anyone in my group who would argue otherwise. Brora or Nairn are nice additions, as is Tain and Golspie.

Final comments: Kingsbarns is worth 130 pounds and Muirfield is available a bit more these days, especially in off-peak periods. Americans stayed away from the UK in droves last year, given all the domestic and international issues, leaving some courses wide open. I just received a notice from Muirfield that I have a twosome at the course for April 27.

In the spring, we balloted the Old Course and had no problem getting on -- could have played it more.

And Allan Ferguson's book is invaluable -- a great resource for booking a trip to Scotland. He's also very approachable -- especially through e-mail.

Best of luck.

Robert

[Mike Hendren]

Peter,

Please note that the Huckster is prone to intoxication by "The Experience."  

For my next trip over (not soon, regrettably), my theoretical four day itenerary would be:  TOC, TOC, TOC, North Berwick day ticket (via rail).  The New, Eden & Jubilee in the evenings as/if the mood strikes me.

Grant me that, and I can forego Muirfield, Carnoustie, Cruden Bay, Kingsbarns,Troon, Prestwick, Turnberry & Machrihanish for life (but not Dornoch).  

Borrowing from Trevino's quote about Merion:  "I'm in love with The Old Course" and don't even know her last name.

Regards,

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Peter:

Michael here has come down with "just came back from playing The Old Course / hasn't seen Muirfield in person itis."

Trust me, Muirfield is well worth the effort it requires to access, however one measures it - experience, course, whatever.  Of course I'm just certain Mr. Hendren didn't look around at all while at St. Andrews and this horrid "experience" matters not to him...

You're more intoxicated than I am, Mike.

Which is actually the greatest compliment I could give you.  

And I love The Old Course, as well.  If confined to only four days, I doubt I'd do it like Mike does, but hell his way wouldn't be bad, that's for sure.  I'd just sure as heck try to get Muirfield in there somehow.

TH

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

I wouldn't recommend Muirfield to anyone who is staying in Scotland for less than a week.  

The strategy of the course is extremely good but the rough is ridiculous, the attitude of some of the people SUCK that are there.

Visually the course is poor.

If your game is off you will NOT enjoy yourself there.

North Berwick is the best course for an average player that wants to have fun in Scotland.  I have played most of the greats in Scotland now and I would have North Berwick at the top of my visit list anytime...

TOC, North Berwick, Kingsbarns, New, Eden...no need to grovel to get on Muirfield...

Brian

[Robert Thompson]

Brian -- I'm gathering you haven't had very positive experiences at Muirfield? I know a number of people who claim the course is among the handful that are top in the world.... Pine Valley, Augusta, Cypress, TOC and Muirfield....

Is it more the reception or the course that you didn't care for?

Robert

[Bob_Huntley]

For my next trip over (not soon, regrettably), my theoretical four day itenerary would be:  TOC, TOC, TOC, North Berwick day ticket (via rail).  The New, Eden & Jubilee in the evenings as/if the mood strikes me.

Grant me that, and I can forego Muirfield, Carnoustie, Cruden Bay, Kingsbarns,Troon, Prestwick, Turnberry & Machrihanish for life (but not Dornoch).  

Mike,

As someone once said,"You get it."

[Brian Phillips]

Robert,

I walked the course this year with the greenkeeper together with a number of other achitect students.  Not one of us liked it.

I have never played the course.  However, two of my best friends did, one is a very very good 4 handicap the other an average 9.

They both hated it.

There are a number here that will say that I cannot judge a course before playing it...well i say bollocks to that.  

I didn't like the course as it is set-up and my friends were treated very very poorly.

What is the point going there?  It isn't that great.   Give me Pine Valley or Sand Hills anyday.  I have played both of them..

Brian

[THuckaby2]

Brian:

To each his own.  I thoroughly enjoyed Muirfield, each of my three times playing it.  That's why I'd want to go back, even if it was part of a 4-day trip.  I can think of far worse things than spending one of those days on the 36-hole Muirfield day, with the lunch in the middle... Yep, it is just one of those golf experiences that one must do before he perishes.  I really believe this.

The course has received enough plaudits that it needs no more from me.

BUT... I also have had no problems with any "attitude" there, though it surely is a very private club, different from nearly all others in Scotland.  They are not welcoming if you do not follow their rules.  But if you do follow their rules, while there is a certain stuffiness, hell to me it's just great fun and I don't get caught up in it one way or the other.  Hmmm... sounds like how things go at just about every decent private club here in the US...

So maybe I'm used this?

The point of going there is that it truly IS that great, or at least I and many others think so.

But to each his own!

All this being said, I too put Sand Hills above it, just so you can see we aren't THAT far off in our thoughts.  

And yes, I too do love the Old Course and would likely put that above Muirfield also.  So any trip over there would just have to include both, for me.

Is that so bad?

TH

[Brian Phillips]

Hucks,

Thats what I love about this site.  People like you and me can discuss this sort of thing and agree to disagree.

No one has really ever explained to me what is so great about it.  The land is a bag of bollocks...it is not linksland.

The architect is the greatest...my favourite Colt.

But what is so great about it...perhaps time for another thread?

Brian

[Bob_Huntley]

Brian,

I am sorry that you received poor treatment at Muirfield, but you are not the first to experience less than good manners from their staff or members. An extraordinary thing is that The Hon. Company chaps expect to be received with open arms at many of our fine clubs here in the States, and feel it is their due.

I have always wondered at the exalted position Muirfield has in the pantheon of the greats.... I feel it over-rated. I get more visceral pleasure at Gullane No. 1 than its more famous neighbor.

Don't get me going about Scotch Foursomes and Two-Balls.

[THuckaby2]

Brian/Bob:

See that's the thing... I LOVED the stuffy treatment there... I also LOVED being made to play fourball then foursome... it made it just such an event... it's very hard to describe.  Now of course if I lived there, I'd likely feel differently and get tired of this right away.  But for a one-time thing?  It was just so damn unique, so damn fun, and such a living monument of golf history, well... it was hard for me not to enjoy.

As for the course itself, I'd say it's overrated only if you call it one of the top 5 in the world.  It's not.  Top 10 I could certainly see, though...

And while the visceral experience and views might be superior at Gullane #1, the pure golf challenge, both strategic and physical, is superior at Muirfield, really to any course in Scotland, I reckon.  Carnoustie is likely tougher, but it is more of a pure physical, penal challenge... Muirfield to me combines the mental and physical challenge better than any course over there, though I'm sure someone will correct me.  This is very difficult for me to explain, words do fail me.  I just found Muirfield to be a links version of pure golf challenge... that is, strokes aren't lost by taking 5 to get out of a bunker or 3 to get out of the rough, strokes are lost in drips and drabs and you don't really know why... it's similar to Shinnecock Hills in that respect.

And it's funny, that's not usually my cup of tea - I prefer fun/quirky courses to the challenge courses... ie NGLA over Shinnecock, TOC or NB or Cruden Bay over Muirfield, generally... But for some reason the "purity" of Muirfield causes it to rise above, for me.

This likely confuses more than helps, oh well.  Isn't the first time, won't be the last for that!

TH

[Ron Kern]

Peter:

Enjoy your trip to Scotland.

One travel tip - when crossing the street be sure to realize that the vehicle closest to the curb comes from your right - be careful when crossing the street.

It is easy to forget - One day while in a town searching for a local pub, after being in Scotland for several days, a  friend looked left, saw that there was no traffic coming, stepped out onto the street, and I had to grab him by his collar and yank him back to the curb just before a car sped by - from the right.


BTW Tain is a blast.  One of my favorites.

[Doug Siebert]

I halfway agree with Brian Phillips.  You better bring your game to Muirfield or you will have a miserable time.  Just ask Tiger Woods after his third round last year...

But while it isn't as visual as a course like North Berwick, or have the eye candy you get at Turnberry, its charm is in its subtlety.  It'd take a lot of trips around that place to figure out where you want to be on the greens, how to play certain pin positions, etc.  On the other hand for all its impressive looks, Turnberry lets you get away with a lot of crap and doesn't require a great deal of thought to play well.  Maybe more to shoot 65s like Nicklaus and Watson, but unless they come here to argue the point, I won't concede it

Usually when I play a course that's more drab looking like Muirfield I don't remember the holes very well not long after (sometimes not even the day after)  But over two years later and I can remember most of the holes there quite clearly, the shots I had, everything.  Come to think of it, I could describe the holes there and the shots I played better than I could at Turnberry, where I've been twice.

As far as the treatment there, my dad and I were treated wonderfully, and we were nobodies who got in at the last minute due to a favor I was given by a friend of the former club secretary.  We don't belong to any big name country club any of the members would ever want to visit, but everyone was great, from the members who were there that day to the many visitors from those who have made yearly pilgrimages for decades to those who were newbies to the place like us.

[Robert Thompson]

Doug -- nice to hear your thoughts on Muirfield. I received notice from the Honourable Company last week that I have a tee time on April 27, so I'm not planning my second week long trip to Scotland in the last two years. Covered off TOC, Turnberry, Kingsbarns, Carnoustie, Murcar, Cruden Bay, Dornoch and Glen Eagles last time, so I'm hoping to get North Berwick, Gullane, TOC and a few others this time -- considering Montrose and the likes of Crail, Lundin and Leven.

But the whole trip is being based around Muirfield and I'm very much looking forward to it...

Robert

[Doug Siebert]

If you do Crail, be sure to play the new course there.  I can't speak to the quality of the old course since I wasn't able to get on it on the day I had available, but the Craigshead is a wonderful course.  Wild, quirky, but playable for all levels if they play smart, I should think.  The routing along, through and over the walls is wonderful, that's not uncommon in Scotland of course but it was a nice touch that the walls were left intact in a modern design and made part of the course to the extent they have a real bearing on strategy on a couple holes (much like they come into play at North Berwick)

Originally the plan for that day was to attempt Machrahanish but after looking at the map and talking to some people we realized that would be too exhausting, if it were possible at all, so Crail was sort of the backup at the last minute based on the recommendation of a gentleman at the Rusacks where we were staying.  I wasn't expecting much, but was very pleasantly surprised.  Others will disagree, but I'd put it ahead of another new course whose name begins with 'K' in my book...

No matter what your view the best lesson you can take from my experience is that you should always listen to opinions on where to play a really enjoyable round of golf from craggly old Scotsmen you meet in a restaurant overlooking the 18th green of TOC

[RSLivingston_III]

I can highly recommend the old course at Crail provided you have some weather. Specifically wind to raise the challenge. It also has some great par 3's. The views from the clubhouse at the end of the day are some of the best in Scotland. It is also a must see if you are a fan of "Golf in the Kingdom". It is generally known this course was a significant influence for the book. The cave underneath the clubhouse is very cool and was an influence for the book. Here's some photos from my last visit:  http://www.hickorygolf.com/Gallery/Scotland/Crail/index.htm
Check the scenics and please ignore the personal shots.
Another course in the St. Andrews area that is highly regarded is Elie.
Muirfield should be experienced with a member on a weekend playing foursomes/lunch/foursomes. That course makes sense for foursomes, and when you really do it right is an incredible experience. You will probably not notice the paths they have for expediting play if you only play your own ball.
I can highly recommend a day ticket on North Berwick. The wind seems to frequently change directions from morning to afternoon there and you won't believe how different that course plays. Although that can be said of most all links courses.
Enjoy,
Ralph

[Robert Thompson]

Thanks gentlemen -- I think Crail is quite likely to be part of our intinerary -- the plan was to play it last time we were in Scotland (in May), but we ended up playing the New Course instead.
This time I'm looking at Leven/Levin, Berwick, etc.
Anyone played Montrose? Panmure? I'm trying to look at other options with a short drive from St. Andrews, where I'll be staying...

Best.

[JSlonis]

Robert,

I'm not sure where you plan to stay when you are in the Crail/St Andrew's area but I would highly recommend the "Crail Golf Hotel".  It is one of the oldest known Inn's in Scotland, it only has 5 or 6 rooms(somewhat small), a great bar(where the locals hang out), good food and a great owner-Graham Guthrie.  I stayed there this past August and it was one of the highlights of our trip.  Graham is a member at Crail, and although we didn't originally have plans to play Crail, he and his son took us out for a late afternoon round, after our morning round at the Old Course.  We played the original course at Crail and had a great time.  The 5th hole is "all-world".  Graham is a hellava great guy and a pretty good player.  Best of luck with your travel plans.

[Robert Thompson]

JSlonis: Thanks for the note. I'm keen on Crail, though I think we're likely to be staying in St. Andrews. But I'm always looking for a cool place to hang out after a day of golf and your suggestion looks cool...

Rob

[Stan Dodd]

Robert,
Re:Panmure I have played there 6 or 7 times and it is a wonderful layout with some really good holes in the middle.  They have been trying to strengthen some of the weak holes.  Have always been treated well and it is rarely crowded.  Wonderful clubhouse.
Re: Montrose was a great hidden gem.  There was a thread earlier with some great pictures.  I had a great day there and was pleasantly surprised as Ihave driven by a couple of times without playing.
Re: Leven solid golf reasonable price.  Some difficult holes #18 in particular but I think it is a notch below Lundin Links.
Have also played Elie, a bit dear for what you get and Crail old is super.
Cheers
Stan

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