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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Weak holes
« on: February 04, 2020, 11:58:59 AM »
      I've taken a little vacation from GCA but am ready to get back.

A comment we all hear something like this. “I like X course but it has too many weak holes.” Or “X hole is the weakest hole on the course.” What is a weak hole?

I use the term "weak" to mean a few different things.  Secondarily it is not always easy to determine what a weak hole is.  For instance.  The first time I played the sixth hole at Four Streams GC outside D.C.  I thought it was a weak hole.  It is only about 310 yards long.  The landing area off the tee is large enough to accommodate even a semi-wild drive and the green is large and seems benign.  I thought, my non-golfing mom could have designed this hole.  Not so.  You have options off the tee. You can hit the drive about two-hundred yards and have a flat lie. Hit it any farther and you have a severe downhill lie. From about a hundred-yards in the hole goes downhill so the hole is drivable, but only if you hit the drive to the right side to avoid the deep bunker fronting the green and take the slope that Smyers intentionally put to the right front of the green.  If you choose to lay up into the downhill slope hitting the ball close with a 60-degree wedge is difficult off a downhill tight lie.  I don't bogey it very often, but I birdie it very seldom, and whenever I do it is with a long putt.
 
 On the other hand I have played 450-yard par fours that my mother could have designed.  Straight away, with an obligatory bunker near the green.  It is totally uninteresting.  It may not be easy to make four because of the length, but it is certainly boring.  Its design is weak.  There is a distinction between weak and easy.  Ten at Cypress Point isn't the most difficult hole on the course to say the least, but who would say that it is a weak hole?

So what is a weak hole? Is there a place for hole we think as weak?
 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 01:14:41 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Pallotta

Re: Weak holes
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2020, 12:03:33 PM »

What Tommy meant to say was:

I've taken a little vacation from GCA but am ready to get back.

A comment we all hear something like this. “I like X course but it has too many weak holes.” Or “X hole is the weakest hole on the course.” What is a weak hole?

I use the term "weak" to mean a few different things.  Secondarily it is not always easy to determine what a weak hole is.  For instance.  The first time I played the sixth hole at Four Streams GC outside D.C.  I thought it was a weak hole.  It is only about 310 yards long.  The landing area off the tee is large enough to accommodate even a semi-wild drive and the green is large and seems benign.  I thought, my non-golfing mom could have designed this hole.  Not so.  You have options off the tee. You can hit the drive about two-hundred yards and have a flat lie. Hit it any farther and you have a severe downhill lie. From about a hundred-yards in the hole goes downhill so the hole is drivable, but only if you hit the drive to the right side to avoid the deep bunker fronting the green and take the slope that Smyers intentionally put to the right front of the green.  If you choose to lay up into the downhill slope hitting the ball close with a 60-degree wedge is difficult off a downhill tight lie.  I don't bogey it very often, but I birdie it very seldom, and whenever I do it is with a long putt.

On the other hand I have played 450-yard par fours that my mother could have designed.  Straight away, with an obligatory bunker near the green.  It is totally uninteresting.  It may not be easy to make four because of the length, but it is certainly boring.  Its design is weak.  There is a distinction between weak and easy.  Ten at Cypress Point isn't the most difficult hole on the course to say the least, but who would say that it is a weak hole?

So what is a weak hole? Is there a place for hole we think as weak?

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2020, 01:15:43 PM »
Thanks, Peter. I don't know why size gets jumbled once in a while.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2020, 03:33:31 PM »
A weak hole to me is dull or perhaps overly difficult or much less the case, too easy. Often times longish uphill holes and par 5s are nothing more than a slog... which is the worst sort of weak.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 07:51:26 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2020, 03:58:38 PM »
I think Weak is almost always defined and used in the context of the course you're playing.


Some may call 1, 10, or 18 at CPC "weak holes" compared to the other ones.  But when compared to the holes on a DS 2 course, not so much.  Seems its tough to get away from its relative nature and coming up with a more absolute definition is likely very difficult.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2020, 06:36:27 PM »
I think Weak is almost always defined and used in the context of the course you're playing.


Some may call 1, 10, or 18 at CPC "weak holes" compared to the other ones.  But when compared to the holes on a DS 2 course, not so much.  Seems its tough to get away from its relative nature and coming up with a more absolute definition is likely very difficult.


Kalen,


I beg to differ.  A weak hole is a weak hole.  If a course has 15 of them, then it is a DS 1.  If it has very few, then it a much better course.  I define a weak hole as (a) not particularly interesting because it is boring either in land form or the charm line and/or (b) it is gimmicky in its attempt to stand out and/or (c) it tries to do too much to challenge the golfer.  I love the Ross courses, that I have played,  but number 10 at Mid Pines and number 15 at Pine Needles fall into category (a) while number 17 at Pine Needles and Number 16 at Hope Valley fall into category (c).  I have never found a Ross hole to fall into category (b), but Number 8 at Kingsbarns does. And for the really top of the top, Number 16 at Royal Dornoch falls into both (a) and (c).  And for all of those great courses and I could do more examples, my view would be the same even if they were on not great courses.


Ira




archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2020, 09:03:29 PM »
 ;D


Aha, many of you are on to it. Weak is weak not necessarily easier. Bad holes are weak not easy necessarily.


The best golf courses I've played flow, they meander from easier holes to harder with such subtlety that you might not see it. But you definitely feel it as you go the route. When you look back you can see it clearly, or perhaps not. That's what makes it good. Not the staccato of hard hard hard but the sequencing makes it so much fun.


I knew that when playing Pine Valley that you had to survive the first five holes, so you had to be ready from the start. As Gandalf would say ...... the deep gulp before the plunge  ;)  An hour later if you walked off number 5 a couple over no worries because you  had a bit of a breather coming up on 6 & 7.  Then back to work on 8 and 9 before the breathers of 10,11,12.
For a long time 11 was my favorite because there was always a little breeze there even on hot muggy days, and it just fits in so well to the land. It flows. When an architect can link his holes to make the walk better it's good stuff, as well as avoid the staccato we discussed previously.


So easier isn't necessarily weak, and still waters run deep!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 09:46:39 PM by archie_struthers »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Weak holes
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2020, 09:17:03 PM »
If an architect 'mails it in', whatever the ostensible reason/rationale, it's going to be a weak golf hole. And I think golfers always know it when they see one. It could be a long hole or a short one, a half-par or a brute, simple or strewn with hazards -- but we can sense when the architect hasn't gone that extra mile and tried harder to, say, have 'the connector' between two other and better holes serve more of a function than merely facilitating a decent routing & easy walk. Yes, that's the main 'justification' for such a golf hole -- but if the architect stops there then he stopped too soon. If I get the feeling that I'm paying more attention playing the golf hole than the architect did in designing it, it's a weak golf hole.
P     
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 09:23:14 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2020, 09:46:26 PM »
Can't weak holes be categorized in one or more of the following ways?
- lays awkwardly on the land
- too many repeating elements seen on other holes
- one dimensional playing strategy
- indifferently placed and sized hazards
- all leading to a lack of memorability
maybe more.....
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2020, 09:47:33 PM »
 ;) ;D


To Carl  well said!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2020, 10:41:47 PM »
I try not to use this term because it means different things to different people.


To low handicappers, weak = easy in relation to par.  A short par-4 is weak unless it's got a lot of difficulties to overcome.  A long par-4 is never described as weak.


To architects, or at least to me, weak has nothing to do with par, it has to do with whether the hole is interesting in some way or another.  Generally, when I'm on the dullest part of the property, I will try to build longer holes so they can't be classified as weak.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2020, 04:22:13 AM »
I'd be inclined to categorise "weak" in golf course terms as "boring".
atb

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2020, 10:08:13 AM »
Tom, should there be a correlation between “difficulties” and length. Short par fours more “difficulties;” short par fours fewer?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Pallotta

Re: Weak holes New
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2020, 10:27:25 AM »

"Generally, when I'm on the dullest part of the property, I will try to build longer holes so they can't be classified as weak."

And from what I can tell, so does everyone else, Tom.

But you must be doing something more and/or different than most, because I've not ever read one of those golf holes described as weak.

And if you did nothing more than most -- i.e. using long holes to 'disguise' dull land -- they would in fact be weak.

Not weak 'for the better player' or weak 'compared to the other holes/rest of the course', but weak as in a 'weak effort'.


« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 04:59:12 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2020, 10:31:33 AM »
 Sorry in advance for the formatting problems that this site gives cut and paste words.  This is from my "stock" preliminary design report.  I know in advance, some will find this offensive or wrong somehow, but hey, if I can't concisely decide what I think makes a good hole after 43 years of this (and maybe another 10 of childhood study) something is probably wrong, even if its just that I don't give the exceptions enough coverage.

Also, I believe that we subconsciously apply a rating to every hole on every course, usually on a 10-80-10 bell curve. (With 18 holes, I guess that is 11-78-11 ratio, assuming two great and two weak holes, with 14 somewhere within the course’s average hole quality) For example, at Cypress Point, 15 and 16 are probably considered the best by most, with 18 and ? considered the weak ones.
[size=0pt] [/size]
[size=0pt]I can generally define what I think is a good hole - it fits the land, plays well, has reasonable challenge, is fun, looks great, is memorable, and is also distinct from others on the course.  [/size]I guess a weak hole would be one severely deficient in the qualities listed below.  Granted, some of the world’s great holes violate some of the good practices listed below.  Most holes (with exceptions…there are always exceptions) follow at least most, if not all, of the following generally accepted golf course design principles:
•   [size=0pt]Aesthetics [/size][size=0pt]– [/size][size=0pt]Most of us play golf in large part to be out in nature.  [/size]When natural site qualities are short on natural beauty, the architect needs to supply it with hazards, contouring, landscaping, etc.
•   [size=0pt]Visible targets and hazards[/size][size=0pt]– First, they are artistic (see above).  [/size]Second, this fosters strategy and even safety.  They are even more important at resort and public courses for safety than at private clubs.
•   [size=0pt]Length[/size][size=0pt] – From each tee, golfers should be able to play holes of all types from a reasonable length for them. [/size]
•   [size=0pt]Width [/size][size=0pt]–[/size] [size=0pt]With some variety, wide turf corridors (fairways and roughs) facilitate strategic route options and allow “hit it, find it, hit it again” golf.  [/size]Sub-200 foot turf corridors are narrow, while 225-250 foot corridors are comfortable.  Any wider is just plain embarrassing to miss, but it does happen.
•   [size=0pt]Challenge[/size][size=0pt] – [/size]The[size=0pt] Robert Trent Jones mantra of “Hard Par, Easy Bogey” still applies.  [/size]I add “possible birdie,” because who doesn’t like those?
•   [size=0pt]Strategy and Options[/size][size=0pt] –[/size][size=0pt] One way to play the hole is penal, two or more ways to play is strategic.  [/size]Parents know that giving kids one choice (which is really no choice) makes them defiant, but offering them their choice usually makes them compliant.  Golfers aren’t very different. 
•   [size=0pt]Risk and Reward [/size][size=0pt]– Temptation has been around since Adam and Eve.  [/size]Choosing between safe and risky shots is always fun. And, it’s even more enticing when it saves a shot or two.  Otherwise, why bother? 
[size=0pt]Differing choices elevates the game from a rote, physical one to a physical and mental one.  [/size]
[size=0pt]·     [/size][size=0pt]Encourage Good Shots [/size][size=&#38]– by letting golfers succeed, i.e., hold the green, stay in the fairway, etc., with all but very bad luck.  [/size]And, by keeping most hazards moderately difficult, because overly punitive hazards make golfers less likely to take risks and succumb to temptation. 
[size=0pt]·     [/size][size=0pt]Punish Bad Shots Proportionally [/size][size=0pt]– T[/size][size=0pt]here are many variations in philosophy, applied by different designers with different goals to unique topography for each hole.  [/size]However, most architects try to distinguish golfing misdemeanors from bigger crimes.  But only if possible and when we want to.  Besides, scorecard wrecking shots make for good bar talk.  They also make golf course architects famous[font=].  [/font][size=0pt]Hazards that allow recovery enhance strategy, and, as someone opined long ago, “The right of eternal punishment should be left to a higher power than the golf course architect.”  [/size]
[size=0pt]·     [/size][font=]Fair – [/font][font=]While architects usually strive for “fair,” life’s not fair and neither is golf.  [/font]“Perfectly fair” is unattainable.  We can’t, and shouldn’t, totally eliminate “rub of the green.”[size=0pt][/color][/size]
[size=0pt][/color]·     [/size][font=]Playable by All[/font][/b][font=] – For “D” players a “good shot” is airborne, generally flying towards the hole, and most of the way there.  [/font]Even by that relaxed standard, most hit about 10 good shots per round and their best shots should get positive results!  Those who hit less than 10 successful shots per round are called “E” (as in “ex”) golfers.  When considering challenge and difficulty, architects generally err on the side of caution to accommodate all potential players.  Key playability tenants includeminimizing forced carries from the forward-most tees, which was easier to do before the environmental movement put birds ahead of birdies.  Another is to minimize placing hazards that only punish poor shots. 
·     [font=]Agronomically Sound –[/font][font=] While unseen by golfers, architects must make sure the soils, sun and breeze, together with proper drainage and irrigation support fine turf expected by golfers.[/font]
[font=] [/font]
[size=0pt]  [/size]One of the beauties of golf is its vastly different fields of play.  The manner in which different architects apply – or don’t – these general rules is what makes golf course architecture such a fascinating subject.
 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2020, 10:34:53 AM »
They're either underdone or overdone. Like a steak, you may not like the particular cut of meat but if it's prepared to your liking you're going to at least enjoy the eating.


If it's not prepared to your liking, well...
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes New
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2020, 10:51:25 AM »
From Jeff's post above....(there's a little icon in the editor in the 2nd row, far right;  a blue [arrow].  It is set to clicked by default. It toggles the editor's built in "smart formatting".  If you unclick it then your cut and paste will be smoother.)


---



Sorry in advance for the formatting problems that this site gives cut and paste words.  This is from my "stock" preliminary design report.  I know in advance, some will find this offensive or wrong somehow, but hey, if I can't concisely decide what I think makes a good hole after 43 years of this (and maybe another 10 of childhood study) something is probably wrong, even if its just that I don't give the exceptions enough coverage.

Also, I believe that we subconsciously apply a rating to every hole on every course, usually on a 10-80-10 bell curve. (With 18 holes, I guess that is 11-78-11 ratio, assuming two great and two weak holes, with 14 somewhere within the course’s average hole quality) For example, at Cypress Point, 15 and 16 are probably considered the best by most, with 18 and ? considered the weak ones.

I can generally define what I think is a good hole - it fits the land, plays well, has reasonable challenge, is fun, looks great, is memorable, and is also distinct from others on the course. 

I guess a weak hole would be one severely deficient in the qualities listed below.  Granted, some of the world’s great holes violate some of the good practices listed below.  Most holes (with exceptions…there are always exceptions) follow at least most, if not all, of the following generally accepted golf course design principles:
•   Aesthetics Most of us play golf in large part to be out in nature. When natural site qualities are short on natural beauty, the architect needs to supply it with hazards, contouring, landscaping, etc.
•   Visible targets and hazards– First, they are artistic (see above). Second, this fosters strategy and even safety.  They are even more important at resort and public courses for safety than at private clubs.
•   Length – From each tee, golfers should be able to play holes of all types from a reasonable length for them.
•   Width – With some variety, wide turf corridors (fairways and roughs) facilitate strategic route options and allow “hit it, find it, hit it again” golf.  Sub-200 foot turf corridors are narrow, while 225-250 foot corridors are comfortable.  Any wider is just plain embarrassing to miss, but it does happen.
•   Challenge –The Robert Trent Jones mantra of “Hard Par, Easy Bogey” still applies.  I add “possible birdie,” because who doesn’t like those?
•   Strategy and Options – One way to play the hole is penal, two or more ways to play is strategic.  Parents know that giving kids one choice (which is really no choice) makes them defiant, but offering them their choice usually makes them compliant.  Golfers aren’t very different. 
•   Risk and Reward – Temptation has been around since Adam and Eve.  Choosing between safe and risky shots is always fun. And, it’s even more enticing when it saves a shot or two.  Otherwise, why bother? 
Differing choices elevates the game from a rote, physical one to a physical and mental one. 
•   Encourage Good Shots – by letting golfers succeed, i.e., hold the green, stay in the fairway, etc., with all but very bad luck. And, by keeping most hazards moderately difficult, because overly punitive hazards make golfers less likely to take risks and succumb to temptation. 
·    Punish Bad Shots Proportionally – There are many variations in philosophy, applied by different designers with different goals to unique topography for each hole.  However, most architects try to distinguish golfing misdemeanors from bigger crimes.  But only if possible and when we want to.  Besides, scorecard wrecking shots make for good bar talk.  They also make golf course architects famous.  Hazards that allow recovery enhance strategy, and, as someone opined long ago, “The right of eternal punishment should be left to a higher power than the golf course architect.” 

·    Fair –While architects usually strive for “fair,” life’s not fair and neither is golf.  “Perfectly fair” is unattainable.  We can’t, and shouldn’t, totally eliminate “rub of the green.”
·     Playable by All – For “D” players a “good shot” is airborne, generally flying towards the hole, and most of the way there.  Even by that relaxed standard, most hit about 10 good shots per round and their best shots should get positive results!  Those who hit less than 10 successful shots per round are called “E” (as in “ex”) golfers.  When considering challenge and difficulty, architects generally err on the side of caution to accommodate all potential players.  Key playability tenants includeminimizing forced carries from the forward-most tees, which was easier to do before the environmental movement put birds ahead of birdies.  Another is to minimize placing hazards that only punish poor shots. 
·     Agronomically Sound – While unseen by golfers, architects must make sure the soils, sun and breeze, together with proper drainage and irrigation support fine turf expected by golfers.

One of the beauties of golf is its vastly different fields of play.  The manner in which different architects apply – or don’t – these general rules is what makes golf course architecture such a fascinating subject.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 10:54:02 AM by David Harshbarger »
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weak holes
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2020, 10:52:39 AM »

David,


Thanks!  I have taken the time to reformat stuff, but didn't care to do it today. ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach