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Paul Rudovsky

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Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« on: September 09, 2023, 06:04:25 AM »
Back in June I had the pleasure of playing two holes and viewing the rest.  I made the trip with two friends who do not regularly post here...Jeremy Brofsky and Jeff Lewis. 


After the round, as the three of us were raving about what they experienced and I mostly saw visually, we got into a discussion regarding what was is...a restoration or a renovation...and it immediately became clear that it is neither...and certainly is not a "new" course.  After further discussion, someone (frankly I am not sure but I think it was Jeremy) had a great answer: REINCARNATION.


So now, my question is...what other reincarnations are "out there".  This is the only "full reincarnation" I can think of...but there certainly courses with a limited number of hole reincarnations (for example any "template" course).  And there are the courses mostly built 20-30 years ago attempting to copy some of the great individual holes that preceded them (I remember one course in the Orlando area that I played in the 70's).


But I think other questions are:
1. is this deserving of a new category?
2. if so, is reincarnation the best name?
3. are there any others out there amongst the 38,000+ courses in the world.


BTW...having just played Hanse's Ballyshear in Thailand, I would classify it as a "partial" reincarnation.


One last point...my guess is that others will follow Peter Flory's brilliant pioneering steps and attempt "reincarnations" of other courses.  Peter has already posted on this site regarding the original 9 hole Ocean Links in Newport.  As the technology improves and expands...this could be start of something much bigger over time.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2023, 07:11:03 AM »
Back in June I had the pleasure of playing two holes and viewing the rest.  I made the trip with two friends who do not regularly post here...Jeremy Brofsky and Jeff Lewis. 


After the round, as the three of us were raving about what they experienced and I mostly saw visually, we got into a discussion regarding what was is...a restoration or a renovation...and it immediately became clear that it is neither...and certainly is not a "new" course.  After further discussion, someone (frankly I am not sure but I think it was Jeremy) had a great answer: REINCARNATION.


So now, my question is...what other reincarnations are "out there".  This is the only "full reincarnation" I can think of...but there certainly courses with a limited number of hole reincarnations (for example any "template" course).  And there are the courses mostly built 20-30 years ago attempting to copy some of the great individual holes that preceded them (I remember one course in the Orlando area that I played in the 70's).


But I think other questions are:
1. is this deserving of a new category?
2. if so, is reincarnation the best name?
3. are there any others out there amongst the 38,000+ courses in the world.


BTW...having just played Hanse's Ballyshear in Thailand, I would classify it as a "partial" reincarnation.


One last point...my guess is that others will follow Peter Flory's brilliant pioneering steps and attempt "reincarnations" of other courses.  Peter has already posted on this site regarding the original 9 hole Ocean Links in Newport.  As the technology improves and expands...this could be start of something much bigger over time.
Paul I was actually just thinking of Ballyshear when I was reaching your question, so you got that covered.  Not a full course, but Bear's Best is a collection of JN favorite holes in Las Vegas. I guess those are best called replica, but reincarnation works.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

John Challenger

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Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2023, 07:44:36 AM »
Funny, I have been using clone, but I like reincarnation. When reincarnated, do we ever come back the same?

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2023, 04:25:55 PM »
There is one other variant of this that could come about with designs that weren't ever built in the first place, like El Boqueron and others.  I guess that would just be an incarnation. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2023, 08:14:57 AM »
Michael Keiser asked me to use the word “restoration” for this, since the goal was to restore  Macdonald’s original design completely.


I guess you could also call it a “re-creation” but this business really doesn’t need more of these marketing terms.


My client at High Pointe has been using the term “reincarnated,” which makes more sense there since it’s a new version of the old course.  Actually, though, he keeps using “Doak reincarnated,” which I am not that comfortable with, since to be reincarnated you’ve gotta die first.

Jim_Coleman

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Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2023, 10:13:40 AM »
   In Philadelphia, we have the Barnes Museum, which was built in a suburb in the early 1920's and which houses one of greatest collection of impressionist and post-impressionist art in the world. The museum was suffering financially, and the collection was moved to center city in 2012 after years of contentious litigation. The new Barnes was built to replicate, to the inch, exactly how and where the paintings were displayed in the original building. I would call this a re-creation.
   If the Lido is analogous to this, I think reincarnation is a better word, as The Lido was dead before it was rebuilt, while the Barnes was very much alive.  The situations with the Lido and the Barnes are very different, I suspect, from the jobs architects are asked to do today when clubs hire them to make their courses better.  I can't imagine many clubs want to exactly recreate what was there 100 years earlier, although if that's what they want, they are certainly entitled to do it. I suspect, however. that when a club hires an architect today, the members are hoping he delivers a course that best challenges today's golfers, not the golfers from 100 years ago. To steal from TD's wisdom on a prior thread, the Barnes and the Lido are Restorations, while pretty much everything else is a restoration.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2023, 11:44:12 AM by Jim_Coleman »

Joe Hancock

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Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2023, 03:47:20 PM »
What would be wrong with calling it a replica?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2023, 04:46:13 PM »
This is a serious question. Considering the template holes used by CBM at NGLA, based on the replies so far, wouldn't that be best described more as a "re-creation" than an "original design" as the new Lido was built on the same premise, that of reproducing 18 great holes from another location, in this case, all from a single golf course?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2023, 06:51:26 PM »
What would be wrong with calling it a replica?


Clients bristle at that word, for some reason.  [Maybe it has connotations of being a cheap knock-off?]. Anyway, the "replica courses" that we have seen previously have all been ones that copied holes from different courses, and not always well.  So I don't think they want the Lido lumped in with those, even if maybe that's the wrong term for the others. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2023, 06:53:28 PM by Tom_Doak »

Joe Hancock

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Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2023, 07:26:10 PM »
Should we be having the same discussion concerning Hanse and Wagners’ “The Lido” in Thailand? Or is it a different animal? I haven’t seen either version of “The Lido”, so I genuinely don’t know.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2023, 07:27:07 PM »
This is a serious question. Considering the template holes used by CBM at NGLA, based on the replies so far, wouldn't that be best described more as a "re-creation" than an "original design" as the new Lido was built on the same premise, that of reproducing 18 great holes from another location, in this case, all from a single golf course?


You got me wondering what words Macdonald used to describe his work at The National and Lido, so I've looked up what he wrote in Scotland's Gift.


" . . . we studied the contours earnestly; selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various classical holes I had in mind . . .
     We found an Alps; we found an ideal Redan; then we discovered a place where we could put the Eden hole which would not permit a topped ball to run up on the green."


     And then, regarding the Sahara at National:  "In one sense it is not a replica, but it is a mental picture of that fine hole, embodying the underlying principle -- a golfer's reward is granted to him who can negotiate the carry he is capable of accomplishing." [So he was not afraid to use the word replica, but at the same time he made pains to say this hole wasn't just a replica.]


     In describing the Road hole, he uses the word "duplication" but describes the small details that he changed deliberately.


    Later, when discussing Lido, he says "I realized that it was not wise to have all the holes on this wonderful lay-out duplicates of holes which I had on my other courses.  So when Bernard Darwin visited America in 1914 I discussed the Lido with him and asked if he would be willing to start a competition . . . "


    It actually hadn't registered on me that the competition started on the basis of a conversation between those two.

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2023, 07:51:50 PM »
Rebirth.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

MLevesque

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2023, 08:03:24 PM »
Maybe a resurrection? 
I am Skew!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2023, 08:48:53 PM »
Butterflies are resurrected. The Lido was Resuscitated.

John Challenger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2023, 09:08:06 PM »
This is a serious question. Considering the template holes used by CBM at NGLA, based on the replies so far, wouldn't that be best described more as a "re-creation" than an "original design" as the new Lido was built on the same premise, that of reproducing 18 great holes from another location, in this case, all from a single golf course?


Macdonald seemed to be looking for an organic analogy. He said, "The flowers of transplanted plants in time shed a perfume comparable to that of their indigenous home."

I don't think he would have viewed the original Lido as a re-creation. Many of the holes he created were composites or originals. In his book, Scotland's Gift, he sometimes used language in reference to the pure template holes, such as Redan, Road, Eden, Alps, and Sahara, that seemed to suggest he sometimes sought to copy those particular "ideal form" holes faithfully. Maybe he hoped and thought of them like rose breeds that would continue to be "planted" two centuries later.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2023, 09:12:51 PM by John Challenger »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2023, 10:14:53 PM »
Redone.  If I’m correct that it’s a replication then it’s redone.
AKA Mayday

Phil Young

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Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2023, 11:57:16 PM »
John, even though this is a discussion about how to define the new Lido that Tom & Mike Keiser built, however one defines what the course is (restoration, renovation, recreation, etc.), it clearly impacts how one will look at NGLA and other courses, even those by Tilly where he specifically included holes such as Redans, Punchbowls, etc... In other words, how can one say that NGLA to Somerset Hill's Redan hole are original designs when they are being built as copies of the originals? Or should they still be considered as original designs such as one of Tilly's own templates, the Reef hole. In 1926 he wrote an article about the Reef hole as being an "outstanding type of golf hole." After describing in detail the specific attributes it would have, he then stated, "A similar hole was originated by me at Newport, and variations to suit conditions have been constructed on other courses with gratifying results."


So again, are these original designs that are simply similar hole types or are they holes built as unoriginal copies of the original or something entirely different such as a "re-creation"?
 




Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2023, 09:30:04 AM »
If it was a car, it would probably fall into the "restomod" category.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2023, 10:04:56 AM »
If it were a song, the Lido would be a cover.  Ballyshear would be more of a remix. 


I think using models of classical holes to design a golf course is similar to a musician using samples of well regarded or popular songs.  A song that uses samples is an original song inspired by the musicians experiences. 
I think Phil’s underlined quote from Tillinghast says it all.  He originated a similar hole.  He felt like the hole was an original even if it borrowed from the same concept as his other Reef holes, because of the setting it was placed in.  Houses can be built from the same model, but they are custom designed to meet the owners wishes or to integrate it in with the property.  Someone still has to design, engineer and build the house.  Once that house is built it becomes a new model, similar to golf holes.


Raynor referenced different holes for inspiration.  The Alps at Yeamans Hall was based on the Alps hole at Greenbrier more so than the original at Prestwick.  It was a modified version of the hole to fit the flatter topography.  As Tom alluded to above, Macdonald and many of the older architects used words like duplicate, replica, clone, facsimile, prototype, model to describe borrowing features from other holes.  The one word I never see them use is “template”. Template is a modern word that seems to confuse a lot of people. Did Macdonald or Tillinghast ever use the word template?


I think Lido falls under the definition of restoration. Bringing back into use something that has been absent for a period of time.

Phil Young

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Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2023, 12:46:25 PM »
      Bret, you asked an interesting question: “Did Macdonald or Tillinghast ever use the word template?” Off-hand I am unaware of Tilly using the word “template” in reference to a golf hole. He did use similar ones such as “Type,” “Models,” “Replicas” & “imitation.” With apologies for the length of what follows, here are two examples of this:
    The first one is found in his 1939 article, “A Veteran Passes,” he wrote: “In 1907 Macdonald became interested in the planning and building of golf courses, although he was a broker by profession, and after securing models of famous holes on British courses of that time, he more or less followed these designs in the building of the National Golf Links of America among the rolling sand dunes near Shinnecock, Long Island. Some years later he designed the beautiful course, the Mid-Ocean, at Bermuda. Numerous other courses were designed by him, still following his custom of working severely to the artificial construction of replicas of British golf holes.”
    Now CBM himself, didn’t build these models, yet Tilly also used another word when describing what these “models” actually were: “designs.”
    Some might say that CBM simply designed his courses based on his models, and that would be correct. Yet Tilly often included plasticine models of every hole to be built on courses he designed. These were used by his own construction crews and/or the supervisors he left in charge of the building of the courses. They were also left for the club to use, along with specific hole-by-hole building instructions, from which a construction crew under the supervision of someone the club hired or a member/committee of the club itself could build the course.
     Although both used models from which their courses were constructed, there was one major difference in how these were used and what they actually were. For CBM, according to Tilly, these were the “designs” from which the course was to be built. Tilly’s models were not. They were the three-dimensional representation of what he personally designed and put on paper from which the courses were to be built. Though used for the same purpose, constructing golf courses, the making of them were done for different reasons by each architect.
     The second one is found in the monthly brochure, The Golf Course. In the June, 1916 edition Tilly authored an article with the title “ORIGINALITY IN CONSTRUCTION.” With direct reference to CBM, it stated, “Not long ago I was amazed to hear a well-known golf constructor [note how Tilly didn’t refer to CBM as a course designer or architect] declare that there was but little that might be considered original in golf construction of today. He asserted that our best holes were copies of time-honored and famous holes of British courses. Certainly I do not agree with him, and in my opinion these models which surely were grand holes ten years ago have completely lost caste since the introduction of far-flying balls.
      “Nevertheless, Great Britain provides us with some excellent types, even under present conditions, but attempts to copy them have produced holes of extreme mediocrity, and certainly a bit of orginality would have been more effective. American courses fairly teem with Redans and Eden holes. A short time since when inspecting one of the latter type, I was reminded of a story.
      “A widow, accompanied by six children, visited the studio of a celebrated portrait painter. ‘We wish you to paint father’s picture,’ they chorused.
      “‘Delighted,’ replied the gentle artist, ‘bring the old gentleman around for a sitting.’
      “‘It can’t be done,’ sniffled the widow, ‘he has been dead for ten years now. We haven’t even got his photograph; but we thought we might describe him to you.’
      “And so, one after another they described minutely Father’s features and general appearance. After some weeks the portrait was completed and the family lined up before the canvass and regarded it in wonder. There was depicted every described feature; nothingwas lacking, but finally the good woman exclaimed, ‘Yes, that’s Father all right; but how changed he seems.’
      “As I regarded that attempted reproduction of that famous old hole at St. Andrews there were features which were similar, but the hole looked about as much like the Eden hole as the Eden Musee.
      “Every great hole possesses many natural features which collectively make it a great hole, each dovetailing with the others and without all of them there is something lacking which spoils the whole. It is not Nature’s ensemble. So why not consider the material which Nature has given us to work with to the exclusion of any attempt to distort it to a sorry imitation.”
      Now this is one architect’s viewpoint as to how to design and build a golf course versus another’s. Both are among the very small handful who might be considered the greatest golf course architect of all time. The reason I bring this up is because upon reading these once again, I realized that they inspired a few questions for Tom. When you designed and built the Lido, did you use just the original design drawings or did you also make models to use in the construction as well? And if you did, which ones came first? Or if you didn’t, did you ever give consideration to having models made?
      This is being asked because it is understood how important it was for you to honor the original Lido course by making the new one as close as possible to it in construction.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 12:49:01 PM by Phil Young »

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2023, 01:10:47 PM »
just played the course
it's a recreation
evidently the members there wanted better aiming lines so rocks have been added on many holes, sadly
It's all about the golf!

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2023, 11:06:14 PM »
Rebuilt?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2023, 10:12:47 AM »
Phil,


Do you get the sense that Tillinghast is an objective critic when it comes to his own work versus his competitors?


I get the feeling from the quotes you have posted that Tillinghast was not an objective critic.  When Tillinghast used models he was “originating similar holes”, yet when Macdonald used models he was “working severely to the artificial construction of replicas.” Tillinghast also called any architect working with models as “silly imitations”.  It’s almost comical the different words he uses to describe his work versus his competitions.


In one of your quotes he complains about people copying holes too closely, and in the next quote he complains that not copying enough of a hole’s features produces mediocrity.  Yet, if Tillinghast is using models he is varying the model to suit the terrain in the most perfect way.  Have you ever questioned his objectivity?


Macdonald and Tillinghast both designed their golf course and would then represent it with a plasticene model to the course builders.  Nothing is different about their approach.  Macdonald used his models as his basis.  Some of the models such as the Cape and Biarritz were Macdonald’s own creation, much like when Tillinghast came up with a few of his own models.  Tillinghast was an artist and the artistic architects didn’t seem to like the idea of Macdonald modeling NGLA after the best holes in Great Britain.  They didn’t think it was artistic enough or creative enough, yet it’s still one of todays top courses that architecture enthusiasts flock to see.  They seemed to know why they didn’t like it, but for such wordsmiths, they could never really put their finger on a satisfactory argument.  The reduced themselves to name calling and shaming.  This is why I think Tillinghast’s quotes are almost comical.  I don’t think the shaming was very effective with Macdonald.  He continued to do what he did and his friends continued to ask for his golf courses.


To me, an architect (like Tillinghast) that complains about using models, and then turns around and gets paid to use them is a hypocrite.  It’s a tell tale sign that they value them and it’s hard to think their arguments are objective. If you don’t like templates or models don’t use them ever! Show me how creative you are without them. I appreciate Tillinghast as an architect and the work he produced, but I don’t really value his critiques of his own work vs. his competitors (as much as some others here), because they were so lopsided.


Bret

V_Halyard

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Re: Lido (WI)--Restoration, Renovation, or what
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2023, 01:26:31 PM »
Reincarnation
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

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