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Craig Moore

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Clubhouse Location
« on: December 09, 2019, 03:28:13 PM »
A friend and I had a recent discussion regarding clubhouse locations.  Were clubhouses seen as more of a status symbol at "member owned" clubs during the Golden Age than they are today?  It seems clubhouse location was very important at member owned clubs and often built on high ground over looking the course or centrally located with views of the holes around it.  The question arose if architects during that era got handicapped on a property because of clubhouse location; much like architects are handicapped when building courses with planned housing developments.  Did member owned clubs eliminate routing options by a predetermined clubhouse location?

Three examples that came up in our conversation were U of M in contrast to the member owned Crystal Downs and Birmingham CC.  The Downs utilizes the high point for its clubhouse to view the course below (especially the front 9). Birmingham CC utilizes an internal section for its clubhouse to also view holes on the front 9. U of M is different as the clubhouse sits on one of the lowest points on the property on its perimeter.  Was MacKenzie allowed to use the best land for routing the course because a priority was not put on a clubhouse location?  Any thoughts on this?  Any other examples people want to share?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 11:35:19 PM by Craig Moore »

Craig Moore

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Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2019, 11:30:29 AM »
I apologize for the initial post didn't read clearly, I fixed it the other day.  I'm surprised this Architecture topic hasn't gained any interest.  Clubhouse location per era is an interesting concept to ponder. 

Thomas Dai

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Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2019, 12:38:22 PM »
In the early days a pub or a hotel often served as the clubhouse. And many an early built clubhouse was a simple wooden pavilion.  On land specifically acquired to build a new course an old farmhouse with the outbuildings serving the greenkeepers and their machinery/horses would often be used. As to location, many factors in earlier times, eg proximity to the local railway station being one.
atb

Bernie Bell

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Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2019, 12:43:26 PM »
“It may not be best to locate the club house on the highest elevation of the property.  This can lead to the finishing holes being played uphill which is tiresome for most golfers.” Ellis Maples 1960.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2019, 01:31:25 PM »
I’ve been thinking about the clubs I know best around the Manchester area.


The majority of courses were built in the early 20th century and utilised an existing building for the clubhouse - typically a farmhouse or small Manor House. The course was laid out around the house.


Links courses are generally on long thin tracts of land and the clubhouse location is dictated by the access point.


Many newish courses are built around a hotel converted from a old hall which also doubles as the clubhouse.


I can’t actually think of very many UK courses which have had the luxury of picking a site for the clubhouse at all!

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2019, 02:17:59 PM »

Robert Hunter has a good section about clubhouse location in "The Links".  Ellis Maples must have read it or was taught by someone who did. Enough room in the area for parking, proshop, three greens and two tees, access to long practice area, verandas for viewing holes finishing at clubhouse. If possible on periphery of course to avoid roads through golfing areas. Decision on clubhouse location should be made at beginning of process.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2019, 03:35:33 PM »
The clubhouse location is an essential part of the routing. 


Sometimes it's a given:  either there is an existing building that will be retrofitted for the clubhouse [like Stonewall], or it is the most easily accessible point from the road and the client doesn't want to build more driveway than necessary [like Ballyneal, or thousands of other courses].


If it's not a given, then I would prefer having the chance to identify the clubhouse location myself, after I see where a few holes are going to want to come together naturally.  I think the same was true for most classic courses.


On a lot of modern courses, the desire to have a huge practice facility close to the clubhouse may be a main driver for the clubhouse location, too.  Or, if there is a preferred site because of one of the reasons cited earlier, then the need for a practice facility can have a big impact on what's left over for starting and finishing holes.  This is one reason I hate practice facilities:  they can often have a detrimental effect on using the best potential golf holes!

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2019, 04:02:17 PM »

Probably worth mentioning it's preferable to put the range in an open area to reduce needless clearing of trees.


Sometimes, there are outside factors affecting clubhouse location.  In most areas, if they sell alcohol, they must be X feet from schools or churches.  With night hours (or night lighting of the range) they may need some separation from existing housing.


Of course, a clubhouse from 12 noon to 6 on the imaginary clock face begins to set up a routing where you aren't looking into the sun as much.


Historically, high points were always used for the clubhouse.  Some land planners now (to the degree anyone is building housing courses) like to reserve all ridges for residential lots, reasoning you can landscape the golf holes or range in the view corridor of the clubhouse to create an internal golf view that is satisfactory. 


Some really like the 18th green below the clubhouse, as if people are really going to sit in the bar and watch near strangers play golf.   A few years back, I lost a project in an interview when I pointed out that I preferred their new clubhouse align with a view down no. 1 fw, since the bunkers, etc. were designed to be viewed in that direction, whereas looking at the back slopes of the 18th weren't likely to be as attractive.  And many years before that, I lost the Lower Makefield Highlands project by suggesting that the clubhouse should align down brand new 1st and 10th holes, a la Inverness to double the view.  They couldn't accept that they could be far enough apart to be safe, thought I was nuts.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_malone

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Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2019, 04:12:45 PM »

Robert Hunter has a good section about clubhouse location in "The Links".  Ellis Maples must have read it or was taught by someone who did. Enough room in the area for parking, proshop, three greens and two tees, access to long practice area, verandas for viewing holes finishing at clubhouse. If possible on periphery of course to avoid roads through golfing areas. Decision on clubhouse location should be made at beginning of process.


Pete,


Hold off. The Links discussion starts at the end of January .
AKA Mayday

Jon Heise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2019, 10:09:54 PM »
I'm not sure what historical precedent there might be for the Golden Age clubhouse locations, but I'm sure as heck willing to drive 7 minutes through the woods to get to a clubhouse if the course is good enough.  I'm pretty biased though.  ;D
I still like Greywalls better.

Anthony Gholz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2019, 02:15:43 PM »
Toronto's on property entry drive is the full width of the course.  Pretty special.  Definitely worth it.  Luckily they close down in the winter and use in town dining clubs to get together.  If that clubhouse ever went up in flames in winter I doubt it could be saved.  Too many Golden Age clubs lost their history that way and Toronto has a wonderful early routing map that I hope has been copied many times over.


Anthony

Craig Moore

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Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2019, 10:23:43 PM »
Thank you everyone for your input.... and I agree Jon a 7 minute drive is not bad when you get a glimpse of the excitement ahead; but one day a new Clubhouse will be in closer proximity.   

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2019, 04:25:36 AM »
A friend and I had a recent discussion regarding clubhouse locations.  Were clubhouses seen as more of a status symbol at "member owned" clubs during the Golden Age than they are today?  It seems clubhouse location was very important at member owned clubs and often built on high ground over looking the course or centrally located with views of the holes around it.  The question arose if architects during that era got handicapped on a property because of clubhouse location; much like architects are handicapped when building courses with planned housing developments.  Did member owned clubs eliminate routing options by a predetermined clubhouse location?

Three examples that came up in our conversation were U of M in contrast to the member owned Crystal Downs and Birmingham CC.  The Downs utilizes the high point for its clubhouse to view the course below (especially the front 9). Birmingham CC utilizes an internal section for its clubhouse to also view holes on the front 9. U of M is different as the clubhouse sits on one of the lowest points on the property on its perimeter.  Was MacKenzie allowed to use the best land for routing the course because a priority was not put on a clubhouse location?  Any thoughts on this?  Any other examples people want to share?



The UofM house makes complete sense for access both in terms off a road and to town for pedestrians walking to the course or taking public transport.  Plus, it would have blended well with Michigan Stadium, Yost and later Crisler.  I would bet money that the house was a set point.  The house also makes sense for use of the land. 


I always think it is a bit weird to drive through the course to access the house.  However, lots of times it is a really cool way to enter a property.  I think my favourite entrances are when the house is part of the neighbourhood or town...no separation between public and golf....you just come upon the place.  North Berwick is a great example, so is Alnmouth Village. 


Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2019, 10:09:00 AM »
Dick Wilson in 1955 provided 3 different routings for our course, depending on where the clubhouse was going to be located.  The "favorite" routing was not chosen as it would cost too much to pave the driveway from the street to the clubhouse. 
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2019, 10:38:21 AM »
Dick Wilson in 1955 provided 3 different routings for our course, depending on where the clubhouse was going to be located.  The "favorite" routing was not chosen as it would cost too much to pave the driveway from the street to the clubhouse.
Interesting.  Bringing services from the public access point (usually a public road) to the clubhouse can be very expensive. Power, water can be expensive to bring in.  Many places have to use septic for sewer in more remote areas and can drill a well. Power you can't just create from renewable sources as easily.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Bernie Bell

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Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2019, 11:24:16 AM »
Certainly not a status symbol or Golden Age but when my home club bought the farm in 1945 they converted the barn to the clubhouse.  I would suppose that this happened often at post-war US courses.  As it happens, our barn/clubhouse does sit pretty close to one of the high points and close enough to the property entrance.  I wonder, without knowing the least thing about it, whether back in the day farmers sited barns close to the road and at a high point where they would catch some breeze and water would drain away. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2019, 11:28:08 AM »
I wonder, without knowing the least thing about it, whether back in the day farmers sited barns close to the road and at a high point where they would catch some breeze and water would drain away.


Yes, but not always:  the clubhouse at Stonewall, which is also an old barn, is in a valley at the bottom of the property, because it's close to a pond.  It did have drainage issues.


The clubhouse at Chicago Golf Club is also a converted barn.

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2019, 11:29:02 AM »
Dick Wilson in 1955 provided 3 different routings for our course, depending on where the clubhouse was going to be located.  The "favorite" routing was not chosen as it would cost too much to pave the driveway from the street to the clubhouse.
Interesting.  Bringing services from the public access point (usually a public road) to the clubhouse can be very expensive. Power, water can be expensive to bring in.  Many places have to use septic for sewer in more remote areas and can drill a well. Power you can't just create from renewable sources as easily.


The club entrance is where the city ends and parish/county starts.  Since it is actually outside the city limits, I would assume the club was on the hook for power, sewage, road, etc.. - but I am just assuming.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2019, 11:34:13 AM »
Dick Wilson in 1955 provided 3 different routings for our course, depending on where the clubhouse was going to be located.  The "favorite" routing was not chosen as it would cost too much to pave the driveway from the street to the clubhouse.
Interesting.  Bringing services from the public access point (usually a public road) to the clubhouse can be very expensive. Power, water can be expensive to bring in.  Many places have to use septic for sewer in more remote areas and can drill a well. Power you can't just create from renewable sources as easily.


The club entrance is where the city ends and parish/county starts.  Since it is actually outside the city limits, I would assume the club was on the hook for power, sewage, road, etc.. - but I am just assuming.
  Yeah probably, I meant to cost to run it into the clubhouse depending on location can be thousands of dollars as I think they charge per foot.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Rick Lane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2019, 02:33:49 PM »
I wonder, without knowing the least thing about it, whether back in the day farmers sited barns close to the road and at a high point where they would catch some breeze and water would drain away.


Yes, but not always:  the clubhouse at Stonewall, which is also an old barn, is in a valley at the bottom of the property, because it's close to a pond.  It did have drainage issues.



The clubhouse at Chicago Golf Club is also a converted barn.


The original 1895 clubhouse at Brooklawn was also at the bottom of a hill by a pond as it was a farmhouse and barns which they converted to clubhouse and casino.  In 1916, the members built a grand clubhouse on top of the hill, overlooking the main industrial harbor at Bridgeport, and likely some of their own factories.   

Craig Moore

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Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2019, 04:12:41 PM »

If it's not a given, then I would prefer having the chance to identify the clubhouse location myself, after I see where a few holes are going to want to come together naturally.  I think the same was true for most classic courses.

On a lot of modern courses, the desire to have a huge practice facility close to the clubhouse may be a main driver for the clubhouse location, too.  Or, if there is a preferred site because of one of the reasons cited earlier, then the need for a practice facility can have a big impact on what's left over for starting and finishing holes.  This is one reason I hate practice facilities:  they can often have a detrimental effect on using the best potential golf holes!


Very good points Tom.  If you can identify the Clubhouse area yourself, do you also try and find the least interesting ground (flat area) for the practice area?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2019, 07:23:46 PM »

If it's not a given, then I would prefer having the chance to identify the clubhouse location myself, after I see where a few holes are going to want to come together naturally.  I think the same was true for most classic courses.

On a lot of modern courses, the desire to have a huge practice facility close to the clubhouse may be a main driver for the clubhouse location, too.  Or, if there is a preferred site because of one of the reasons cited earlier, then the need for a practice facility can have a big impact on what's left over for starting and finishing holes.  This is one reason I hate practice facilities:  they can often have a detrimental effect on using the best potential golf holes!


Very good points Tom.  If you can identify the Clubhouse area yourself, do you also try and find the least interesting ground (flat area) for the practice area?


If we have to have a practice area.  I think that is a lower priority for me than for any architect working today, which is one key reason my courses are better than most . . . I just won't sacrifice good golf holes for a practice area.

jeffwarne

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Re: Clubhouse Location
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2019, 08:07:39 PM »

If it's not a given, then I would prefer having the chance to identify the clubhouse location myself, after I see where a few holes are going to want to come together naturally.  I think the same was true for most classic courses.

On a lot of modern courses, the desire to have a huge practice facility close to the clubhouse may be a main driver for the clubhouse location, too.  Or, if there is a preferred site because of one of the reasons cited earlier, then the need for a practice facility can have a big impact on what's left over for starting and finishing holes.  This is one reason I hate practice facilities:  they can often have a detrimental effect on using the best potential golf holes!


Very good points Tom.  If you can identify the Clubhouse area yourself, do you also try and find the least interesting ground (flat area) for the practice area?


If we have to have a practice area.  I think that is a lower priority for me than for any architect working today, which is one key reason my courses are better than most . . . I just won't sacrifice good golf holes for a practice area.


Hopefully , if you ever have to make a choice you bag the clubhouse and keep the practice area ;D ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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