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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« on: November 21, 2019, 12:42:32 PM »
about golf course architecture? I type this with some reservation since I have not seen the list of new Golf Magazine raters.


Spoiler Alert!!!


The only person who I know that didn’t make the cut is me. While I think we can all agree that I have established myself as one of the finest minds in golf my lack of extensive international travel causes some reservation on my qualifications to help compile a world top 100. So to Ran, no hard feelings buddy.


With that aside I can’t deny a certain curiosity on who got the boot and who stashed the loot. And honestly, it’s not a bag of healthy emotions. Because I refuse to purchase disposable reading material there is a slight chance that I will never see the list. For this reason I beg of all of you to not publish the list of raters on this site. It will lead to nothing but jealousy, scorn and a deep inner pain for those of us who don’t matter a damn.


Of course it could be worse. You could be one of those lucky bastards who once rated but are now on the outside looking in. They choked, we just didn’t play.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2019, 01:02:40 PM »
Are you not interested in who is moving up and who is moving down and why?


The ratings can serve as a benchmark for those who have done quality work. Being from San Francisco I can tell you that virtually nobody on this site had ever heard of Cal Club until the renovation a few years ago. Now it's Sleepy Hollow moving onto the list after incredible work.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2019, 01:11:53 PM »
By who I meant the people rating the courses not which courses are on the list. One ex Digest rater has already taken this to a personal level. I’m already sensing some tension from those requesting the names.


Perhaps a discussion of who the raters are and their qualifications would be better suited for another site. NLU for example.


Btw: Congrats.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2019, 03:23:29 PM »
By who I meant the people rating the courses not which courses are on the list. One ex Digest rater has already taken this to a personal level. I’m already sensing some tension from those requesting the names.

Perhaps a discussion of who the raters are and their qualifications would be better suited for another site. NLU for example.



John:


Fair enough, I doubt that Ran wants to do that analysis here. 


I only did a quick browse of the list of panelists when the magazine sent all panelists a link to the magazine issue, a day before publication, so I certainly don't remember them all.  As before, there are a lot of names that I don't know, and quite a few others that I do, but only as panelists.  It's my firm belief that they should include MORE prominent players [men and women], MORE people in varied roles in the golf business, and FEWER amateur golfers who like to travel and rate things.  But they've gotta get enough votes on courses to rate them, and Rory McIlroy has probably only played 30 or the top 100 [and less than 30% of the other contenders on the ballot].


I also think there are too many architects on the panel, personally, but most of us have gone out of our way to see the best work of past and present, and often on our own dime.  I am not worried about their conflicts of interest in the voting, because what goes around comes around.  I just think that the "architect's" perspective of why a golf course is good sometimes clashes with the "golfer's" view of why a course is good, and since the readers are golfers, that should be the primary point of view.




It does concern me that Joel, just above, and Ran himself think that the rankings should promote the great renovation / restoration work that has been done.  I say this because they are attaching a narrative to the voting, when in fact they cannot [and SHOULD not] pretend to know exactly why I or any other panelist voted the way we did.  They're the same as stock pickers on CNBC or political commentators on any TV network . . . they are just interpreting results based on their chosen narrative, which is a way of trying to control the narrative.


But it's not a narrative.  It's just a ranking from a small bunch of people who think they know better.




P.S.  I might care what you say about my courses, because sometimes you make a good point.  I don't care about your rankings, or really anyone else's.  They can be good for business, but I still prefer to believe that it's the course we built that brings us more business, not the ranking of it.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 03:25:28 PM by Tom_Doak »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2019, 03:35:09 PM »
Tom,


One thing that differs between you and me on how we rank courses is that I would give a 10 to the course that I would choose to play the rest of my life if I won the lottery. But I’m selfish that way.


Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2019, 07:02:07 PM »
Please stop.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=preach


Damn, Alex took my spot.


That said, my position as a self-described "147 Custodian" has been elevated with Ran selling out to the corporate golf machine. I might get one of those Ukrainian Spies to give me the "Keys to the GCA Kingdom", and I will elevate Hollywood GC to #148 status :)




"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2019, 07:52:10 PM »
John K. -

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just remember, there are some people who don't care what you think about anything;)

DT

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2019, 03:27:52 PM »
Barney, I find it absurd and amusing that I goy away with serving on a magazine’s panel for a dozen years before being booted for inactivity a few years ago.


I wonder: Are panelists raters or influencers?


Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2019, 03:56:10 PM »
An influencer by definition is not anonymous. This was the genius of Brad Klein and why I call for the squashing of the names of the golf.com raters from this site.


I love influencers because I proudly am one. An influencer let’s you know what is best by where he spends his time and the people with whom he associates. Raters play where they are told and hang out with a panel. You never have to ask an influencer what’s best and you can’t stop a rater from telling you. It’s a mixture best left unstirred.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 04:02:12 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2019, 04:06:18 PM »
You never have to ask an influencer what’s best and you can’t stop a rater from telling you.


Just moved to the top of the leaderboard for quote of the year!!!!!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2019, 04:06:28 PM »
John,

You do an exceptional job as the Lavar Ball of GCA.com, you've carried the mantle in fine fashion.

P.S. I will also mention how humble you are as you left that out in your last post.  Your Welcome!  ;) 

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2019, 04:47:22 PM »


It does concern me that Joel, just above, and Ran himself think that the rankings should promote the great renovation / restoration work that has been done.



I'm not promoting a great restoration or renovation plan, I'm simply pointing out that there are a lot of courses out there that haven't achieved a level of greatness they deserve.


I'm not sure what NGLA ranking was before Karl started the revolution. You yourself deserve some credit for the work at Valley Club and Shoreacres among others.


I'm mentioning Cal Club because it's possibly the greatest renovation/restoration in American golf history. Nobody ever called me requesting to play it before the work. 


I believe there are others out there that could vastly improve. I played one this summer that was stunning yet choked in trees with terrible mowing lines.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2019, 06:22:45 PM »
Are you not interested in who is moving up and who is moving down and why?


The ratings can serve as a benchmark for those who have done quality work. Being from San Francisco I can tell you that virtually nobody on this site had ever heard of Cal Club until the renovation a few years ago. Now it's Sleepy Hollow moving onto the list after incredible work.


How can you tell us why?  Or how do the rankings do that?  No one on the panel was asked what they thought of the work at the Cal Club, they were just asked to rank it.  You and Ran are the ones who are telling us that one led to the other, and you can't really speak for my vote.  [I thought the work at the Cal Club was excellent, by the way.  But that's not my point.]


And I have heard [from you!] that you are quite vocal in telling certain clubs to whom they should talk about renovation work.


I have consulted for years at a lot of courses, and I'd like to believe it's helped them in the rankings.  [One of the new entries that benefitted from this is Royal Melbourne East, where Brian Slawnik and I fixed a bunch of things 4-5 years ago; Brian's work at Somerset Hills is another.]  You don't see my name that much because when we restore a course, I don't think we are changing the design and therefore we shouldn't take design credit for it.  Sadly that standard is not applied equally across the board.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think... New
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2019, 08:32:47 PM »
Should Panelists be given specific lengths of term, staggered so that over (let's say 8 years) there would be 100 turnover?


Would a new Panel still keep the top ranked courses at the top?


Is being a Panelist that much of an ego snack?


Or is the membership of Pine Valley all that concerned about their course's ranking?


As a proud member of the "great un-washed" through divine intervention ever got to be a Panelist, would I ever get an invitation to play and re-rank (for instance) Sand Hills?


Let's acknowledge the un-bridgeable divide between those that have access and those that do not.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 04:53:56 PM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2019, 09:02:46 PM »


As a proud member of the "great un-washed" through divine intervention got to be a Panelist, would I ever get an invitation to play and re-rank (for instance) Sand Hills?


Let's acknowledge the un-bridgeable divide between those that have access and those that do not.


A non-member can write a letter to Sand Hills asking to visit in the coming year.  I think you have to be a member of another club to be considered, but I won't swear to that.  It may help your cause to be a panelist of some magazine, but it is certainly not a pre-requisite, and I doubt it matters much to Dick Youngscap.


Being a panelist is little help with access to the top 50 courses in America.  There are plenty of people who have played them, and their status is relatively secure, so they don't bend their guest rules for panelists.  It's the courses that WANT to be in the rankings or WANT to move up that provide way more access than they should.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2019, 10:25:35 PM »


As a proud member of the "great un-washed" through divine intervention got to be a Panelist, would I ever get an invitation to play and re-rank (for instance) Sand Hills?


Let's acknowledge the un-bridgeable divide between those that have access and those that do not.


Being a panelist is little help with access to the top 50 courses in America.  There are plenty of people who have played them, and their status is relatively secure, so they don't bend their guest rules for panelists.  It's the courses that WANT to be in the rankings or WANT to move up that provide way more access than they should.


Bsed on where would be raters tell me where their game is the morning that they want to play our place, I'd say you need to edit the part about Top 50 down to Top 25-at least.
I only allow unaccompanied raters to play under our normal unaccompanied rules, weekdays in the shoulder seasons of spring and fall, but it seems I am definitely in the minority.
I am always amazed how many  unabashedly seek the double no-no holy grail of access ( a peak season weekend) and upon polite rejection suggest that they just "get out ahead of the first group and fly" like no Master of the Universe ever thought of that, and no maintenance crew ever existed.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2019, 10:48:54 PM »


As a proud member of the "great un-washed" through divine intervention got to be a Panelist, would I ever get an invitation to play and re-rank (for instance) Sand Hills?


Let's acknowledge the un-bridgeable divide between those that have access and those that do not.


Being a panelist is little help with access to the top 50 courses in America.  There are plenty of people who have played them, and their status is relatively secure, so they don't bend their guest rules for panelists.  It's the courses that WANT to be in the rankings or WANT to move up that provide way more access than they should.


Bsed on where would be raters tell me where their game is the morning that they want to play our place, I'd say you need to edit the part about Top 50 down to Top 25-at least.
I only allow unaccompanied raters to play under our normal unaccompanied rules, weekdays in the shoulder seasons of spring and fall, but it seems I am definitely in the minority.
I am always amazed how many  unabashedly seek the double no-no holy grail of access ( a peak season weekend) and upon polite rejection suggest that they just "get out ahead of the first group and fly" like no Master of the Universe ever thought of that, and no maintenance crew ever existed.


My pro told me a very long time ago anytime he made a call to get us on a course unescorted we were to buy a shirt. The balls some people have is amazing. I don’t even ask him to make a call unless I know the club policy allows unescorted play.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2019, 12:14:50 AM »
Tell me again why we're ranking golf courses?
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does it hurt that no one cares what you think...
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2019, 09:24:41 AM »
Jeff Warne...you know my favorite trick, then? #MasterOfTheUniverse


John K...I would want your trenchant ass on any panel with a vote. Please continue to ... wait for it ... preach.


Tom D...All the feels for your frank assessment of what some of us miss.


Craig S...we're ranking courses for the same reason we measure our ...


Carl R...never get #Washed. Club and life politics aren't worth the divide cross.


Rob M...that is excellent advice. Are golf-shop shirts the equivalent of soda pop, in terms of profit margin?



Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

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