Quite Short Par 4s

[Ben Hollerbach]

I don't think I've seen anyone mention the 4th and Mid Pines. Regardless of your feelings on the tree short right of the green its still a fantastic short par 4

[Ira Fishman]

#4 at Mid Pines is indeed a terrific hole both because of the options off the tee and the green complex. It also is the subject of one of the best threads on this Board.


Ira

[Amol Yajnik]

Myopia Hunt Club has 2 of these holes: #1 is 274 yards (but plays signficantly uphill) and #6 is 260 yards.  Both holes have quite small greens that play even smaller due to the amount of slope in them. 

[John Ezekowitz]

In the sub-300 yard category, I'll add the 6th (old 1st) at Springdale in NJ. The hole gets progressively narrower with the green complex hard against the retaining wall of the Grover Cleveland bell tower (Princeton University) on the right.


I find it endlessly interesting because if the pin is front or front left, driving close to the green does not confer an advantage with a short pitch over the false front. With the pin in the back, however, I think driver is the play.


The green complex has undergone some changes in the past few years that others on the board might be able to illuminate.

[Jon Wiggett]

The very best short par four I have played (and I have played a lot) is the 5th at Rastenmoos situated in the Swiss city of Luzern. At 280 yards it is quite short but a fiendish design meaning the more you attack it the harder it becomes. Designed by one of our own John Chilver-Stainer I doubt many of those who play realise just how great a hole this is.


Jon

[Buck Wolter]

#10 at Gateway National on the Illinois side of St Louis has a terrific 270 yard par 4 by Keith Foster. Bisected by a creek that runs the length of the hole and is bulkheaded at the green and a big central bunker in the fairway. Lots of options from going for the green, going over the bunker leaving a tough chip over the creek or laying up short of the bunker leaving the longest shot but the best angle. Very good hole on a very good course.

[Tim Martin]

1 Fenway GC-285 Tips and 263 Members
7 Glens Falls-292 Tips and 261 Members
5 Southampton GC-280 Tips and 273 Members


3 of my favorite short par four holes

[Peter Pallotta]

I've played quite a few. It strikes me that, though both are considered 'short fours', there is a world of difference between a 260-270 yard Par 4 and a 300-310 yard Par 4. For me at least, they don't 'play' the same way at all. I'm not sure which kind, all else (ie architectural quality) being equal, I prefer. I think it's probably the latter/longer variety -- because, since 'all else' isn't often and maybe can't ever be equal, the 300-310 yarder seems to have a much better chance of proving to be a good hole, and providing challenge & interest day after day.   

[Sean_A]

Most of the good short 4s are those which weren't meant to be driven, so there is high degree of trouble lurking which leaves the golfer with a clear choice. There is a place for the awkward short 4 as well. The type where none of the choices are appealing.

I seem to be a fan of short 4s which use a piece of land not immediately obvious as good for golf.

Anyway, regardless of the par designation, the 220 to 280 yardage range is vastly under utilized.

Happy Hockey

[Joe Zucker]

Does a short par 4 have to have a drivable component to be great in the modern game?  I don't think that the answer is uniformly yes, but the temptation of hitting driver close to a green adds a lot for me.  To be honest, when Ira brought up the 3rd at #2, I didn't even think of it is a short par 4.  When I played it earlier this year, I thought the green was fantastic and interesting.  But the hole so clearly called for a shot out to the left, then a wedge into the green, that it did not fit the "Short Par 4" category for me. 


I  think that's because I'm relatively young and I like being tempted into hitting driver somewhere I shouldn't. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Joe, I can't drive any par fours anymore no matter how short. Number three at Pinehurst was never drivable for me. Yet, the tee shot is formidable. The temptation to drive it as far up the fairway as possible is strong. The layup is no as much fun but more prudent. The lure of driving as close to the green of a short par four can be too strong to avoid. A short par four is a great addition to any course. It does not have to be drivable to be a great short four.

[V. Kmetz]

Anyway, regardless of the par designation, the 220 to 280 yardage range is vastly under utilized.

I often think it is owing to the par designation; but par or not, the yardage (all "200s," really) is indeed woefully underrepresented.  It's a shame because it's got such potential for so many golfers whose carry and/or roll distance tops out in this range... it ought to be an architect's favorite from a box of Russell Stover's...the chance to plot complications all the way along the path of a big hit and huge implications for whether such holes play up or downhill...into or away from the wind.


cheers  vk

[Tim Gavrich]

On Monday I played the shortest par 4 I've played in quite a long time: the 244-yard 18th at Royal Burgess Golfing Society in Edinburgh. For reasons that I can't quite grasp, it's listed as a par 4 from the Red (medal) tees but a 232-yard par 3 from the shorter White (member) tees. It's pretty straightaway, but there's a little burn crossing the fairway about 170 off the tee, and OB just a couple paces off the right edge of the green. Looks simple in theory, less so in practice.


I played Lundin GC yesterday, and the 7th there is a sweet little iron-pitch 270-yarder.


There are way too few holes in the 235-280 yard range.

[Joe Zucker]

Joe, I can't drive any par fours anymore no matter how short. Number three at Pinehurst was never drivable for me. Yet, the tee shot is formidable. The temptation to drive it as far up the fairway as possible is strong. The layup is no as much fun but more prudent. The lure of driving as close to the green of a short par four can be too strong to avoid. A short par four is a great addition to any course. It does not have to be drivable to be a great short four.

Tommy, I don't disagree with you.  In my one play of #2, I thought the green was what made the 3rd hole so great.  What I'm trying to get at, is that the short length of a hole should make it better than if the same hole were played from a longer tee.  For example, would the third at Pinehurst be significantly worse if the tee shot were 50 yards back and you were hitting a 7 iron rather than a wedge into that great green?  From what I remember, the answer to that question is "no" for me.  Whereas if #10 at Riviera (I've never played) took the tee 50 yards back, the hole would be far less compelling.


I don't think the third at #2 is a bad hole at all, but I'm not sure the shortish length is what makes it interesting.  If I were thinking about my favorite short par 4s, the lack of length is often what makes them interesting.  Sean's point of holes from 220-280 rings true to me because it brings so many more players drives close to the green.

[Tom_Doak]

Woodlands 4 in Melbourne has always been one of my favorites because it could be built anywhere and presents interesting choices to all level of player.


Its 275 yards to a bunkerless green raised from surrounding short grass and oriented towards the right side of the fairway.  Short and straight may well have an advantage over pin high and off line.

We have shamelessly ripped off this hole for the 13th at Memorial Park.  It's 330 yards from the back tee but we are hoping tge Tour will play it up at 300 to tempt guys to let it fly.  Our green had to be a bit bigger, though.

[Jim Nugent]

Three I haven't seen mentioned, that IMO are outstanding...

1.  #10 at the Belfry.  Saw the Ryder Cup teams play this on TV in the early 1990s.  Created incredible drama, as the world's top pro's decided whether to go for the green or lay up.

2.  #7 at Olympic Lake.  Especially before they turned the narrow 3-tier green into 2 tiers (and maybe still). 

3.  #12 at Palos Verdes CC.  I could reach it with a 4-wood back in the mid 1980s, but somehow ended up with bogey.   

[Dave McCollum]

I wouldn't call any of them great, but the real secret to scoring well at my home course, Canyon Springs, is playing the 7 par 4's between 320 to 375 yards well (blue tees 6465 yards overall).  There is a set of black tees that add another 400 yards, but we rarely see them used outside of competitive events.  All of our par 5's are reachable in favorable conditions, so our course rating is quite low.  It is very rare for anyone to shoot the course rating in state amateur or pro events, however. I just played in a Ryder Cup type of team event--4 rounds in 3 days (2 four balls, 1 foresome, 1 singles) and was reminded again how well our course tests the young big hitters.  We played off the regular 6,000 yard tees and the matches were very competitive.  Drivers stayed in bags for the bombers who wanted to score.     

[Jeff Schley]

3.  #12 at Palos Verdes CC.  I could reach it with a 4-wood back in the mid 1980s, but somehow ended up with bogey.   

Is this Palos Verdes Golf Club correct?  Rolling hills and canyons throughout.  I vaguely remember a short hole about 260 there, assuming this is it.  There also is a short par 4 at Los Verdes somewhere on the back that is also drivable.

[Jim Nugent]

Jeff, you're right about the name.  Did they change it in the last 30 years, or was I confused? 

I played that short hole at Los Verdes, too, but considered it average at best. 

[Roman Schwarz]

I may be a broken record about this, but let's talk about Wekopa Saguaro!


All from 6600 tees....


#2:  299 yards.  I've hit everything from 6 iron to driver off the tee.  Driver is not to be repeated.
#7:  305 yards.  It's uphill and blind to the green.
#10:  322 yards.  One of my favorite short ones.  It's all about the horseshoe green around the coffin bunker.  It's the only one I regularly go for, and since it's downhill, it may be more reachable than the others.
#16:  315 yards.  Way uphill and a tough carry, so rarely see anybody pull driver.


Oh, and let's throw in the 233 yard 15th par 3.


That's 5 holes between 230 and 320.  I'm not sure if I've seen that elsewhere.

[Alex Miller]

Jeff, you're right about the name.  Did they change it in the last 30 years, or was I confused? 

I played that short hole at Los Verdes, too, but considered it average at best.

That short hole at Los Verdes was unfortunately made worse by an ugly round bunker set up right in front of the green to discourage people from going for it. I believe it is 312 playing ~280 down the hill.


Hole 12 at Palos Verdes is ~265 severely uphill and doglegging around trees. I've only seen a few drives ever end up on the surface as it takes a huge fairway wood or high cutting driver to make the carry and hold the green, which is surrounded by sand.

[Mark Pearce]

That's 5 holes between 230 and 320.  I'm not sure if I've seen that elsewhere.

You haven't been to Elie, then?  Just don't wear stretch denim and you'll love it.

[Jim Nugent]

Hole 12 at Palos Verdes is ~265 severely uphill and doglegging around trees. I've only seen a few drives ever end up on the surface as it takes a huge fairway wood or high cutting driver to make the carry and hold the green, which is surrounded by sand.

I could not hit a 4 wood 265 uphill.  But my memory is that I ended up pin high.  Maybe there was a shorter tee in 1985?

Do you know if they used to call it PV Country Club (as opposed to Golf Club)?