Hyde Park (Jacksonville)

[BCrosby]

I played Hyde ParK in JAX last weekend with my son.  Donald Ross, 1925.  A wonderful course.  Some terrific holes - nos. 15, 16.  No. 6 is a sneaky par 3 with a fall off the back edge and a hidden pond on the left side.  Good stuff.

According to C&W, the course was remodeled by Stanley Thompson.  The year is not given.

With $29.50 greens fees, the best deal in Florida.  It is off the beaten track but well worth the effort.

Does anyone know anything about the Thompson changes to the course?   The course itself has no records of his work there.

[John_Conley]

No way will I vote for that as the best deal in Florida.  See my thread on the Dunes at Seville (GUESS WHICH COURSE) for my vote.

Glad you liked it.  How 'bout Palatka?  I hear mixed things.

[Tyler Kearns]

BCrosby,
        Apparently Stanley Thompson did work at Hyde Park in 1926, the year after it opened. My edition of "The Toronto Terror", a biography of Thompson is not handy, but i'll post back to see if it describes the nature or extent of his work there.

[Jeff Mingay]

Messrs. Crosby and Kearns,

Jim Barclay lists Hyde Park as a Thompson renovation done in 1925, in The Toronto Terror; which makes no sense?

I assume Jim got that information from C&W; because he does not provide any annotated notes about Thompson's work there, as he does for other courses.  

[Tyler Kearns]

BCrosby,
       After thumbing through "The Toronto Terror", I have to concure with Jeff Mingay, Barclay (the author) shows no record of the nature of the renovation to Hyde Park. However, he notes that a 1926 advertisement, Stanley Thompson indicates that he remodeled the course. Hyde Park has no record of these renovations, but it is noted, they have few records at all.
       Interestingly, Thompson had expanded his operations into the United States by this time, and had opened a branch office in Jacksonville, Florida by 1925. Thompson was busy in this area at the time, making renovations at Floridale GC in Milford, Fl. (NLE) in 1925 and the design of a 27-hole layout in Jacksonville, Fl., the Neilhurst G & CC (NLE) from 1924-25. Therefore, it is not unlikely that he did work at Hyde Park, unfortunately the quantity of work done is unavailable.  

[BCrosby]

TKearns -

Thanks for the information.  What I don't understand is why Thompson would be listed as renovating a course in 1925 that was completed by Ross in same year.

Are C&W wrong on their dates?  Was there some controversy about the Ross design that required them to bring in Thompson?  Ross was also doing a lot of courses in north Florida and Georgia in 1925.

Interesting.  

You are right, Hyde Park has (apparently) no historical materials other than an aerial photo hanging behind the cash register.  That photo probably dates from the 60's, though I'm just guesssing.

All this makes the course that much more intriguing.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Didn't Thompson do quite a bit of construction work early in his career -- working with Alison and Strong among others.  Is it possible he constructed Hyde Park for Ross?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Another possibility might be the situation that happened with Whippoorwill Club.  Originally a Ross design, then the developer felt need to blow it up and start over ... with Charles Banks as architect.

[BigEdSC]

http://jacksonville.com/sports/golf/2009-03-24/story/game_of_hyde_and_seek

Interesting article for the tree house to chew on.  This article appeared in yesterday's Jacksonville paper.

I've played Hyde Park a couple of times and enjoyed the course.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2009/3/24/thats-a-distinction-without-a-difference.html

[BCrosby]

I'm not sure what the fuss is. There are lots of Ross courses in the SE. Thompson is every bit as good an architect as Ross and his courses in the US are very rare.

Hyde Park has a problem that ought be seen as an opportunity.

Bob

[Robert Thompson]

Bob: Interestingly there are courses in Canada that claim to be Thompson designs for the same reason the owners of Hyde Park claim it is a Ross -- it is a recognizable brand.

I wrote about this whole affair here:

http://www.ontgolf.ca/g4g/2009/03/25/thompson-or-the-donald-the-debate-over-flas-hyde-park-golf-club/

[David Stamm]

I'm not sure what the fuss is. There are lots of Ross courses in the SE. Thompson is every bit as good an architect as Ross and his courses in the US are very rare.

Hyde Park has a problem that ought be seen as an opportunity.

Bob

Exactly Bob. This is not a bad thing and it's an opportunity for Hyde Park to promote something that is rare.

[Don Hyslop]

I'm not sure what the fuss is. There are lots of Ross courses in the SE. Thompson is every bit as good an architect as Ross and his courses in the US are very rare.

Hyde Park has a problem that ought be seen as an opportunity.

Bob

Exactly Bob. This is not a bad thing and it's an opportunity for Hyde Park to promote something that is rare.

Exactly, it is like having a painting that was done by both Van Gough and Monet.

[Richard Hetzel]

I have been meaning to get down there each summer while I am vacationing at Jekyll Island, GA. Maybe this summer I can finally get there to play it. Ross, or Thompson, who cares? I just want to get a 10 or less on that par 3 so i can say I beat Ben Hogan.

[Mike Sweeney]

Curious if the Ross vs Stanley Thompson debate has been updated for Hyde Park? My son moves here this summer, so I am interested to play it. It looks like they still list it as a Ross course:


https://hydepark.golf/hyde-park-history/


But the Thompson website says:


https://www.stanleythompson.com/about-stanley/stanley-s-courses/united-states/hyde-park-golf-club


Although long thought to have been designed by Donald Ross, further research by golf course architect Jay Smith, in collaboration with many others, has uncovered that Hyde Park is likely a Stanley Thompson solo 1925 design.


Thanks

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mike,


It seems that Hyde Park has a bit of a muddled history, design-wise. I've corresponded with Jay Smith, who's discovered some information suggesting that Stanley Thompson's brother, Frank, was involved with the course's original design. Frank and Stanley were excellent golfers who played/competed in the Jacksonville area frequently during winters. Frank was involved with Stanley's businesses, from time to time, over the years, too. It wouldn't surprise me if Frank was involved with establishing the Thompson office in Jacksonville, about the same time Hyde Park was designed and constructed. 


However, I've not seen evidence attributing any other golf course design to Frank Thompson.

[Mike Sweeney]

Updated - https://www.jacksonville.com/story/sports/golf/2021/03/30/hyde-park-owners-embark-project-leading-100th-anniversary/7028460002/?fbclid=IwAR2zeuIsnguzDV4eV_L1Mv-M3IdofFXAMuBh8XzV9RzdLg4sNbldeAj1eJY

Smith modified his searches accordingly and he got three hits:

• May 13, 1926 article in the Miami News that referred to a meeting among Hyde, Frank Thompson, the brother and business partner of Stanley Thompson, and Bowman-Biltmore Hotels vice-president Charles F. Flynn -- who previously lived in Jacksonville and served on the Duval County board of county commissioners with Hyde. According to the article, "Mr. Hyde is engaged in actively directing the energies of the Hyde Park Co., a development corporation of Jacksonville. With Mr. Hyde on his trip to Miami is Frank Thompson, noted Toronto golf architect, who is designing and building the Hyde Park Country Club links." Smith said Frank Thompson handled the business end of the family business and his brother did the design work.

• A Dec. 4, 1926 article in the Florida Times-Union story on a tournament commemorating the opening of Hyde Park states: "The Hyde Park course ... was laid out by the famous Canadian architect Stanley Thompson."

• And from a short item in Canadian Golf Magazine's March 1925 edition: "Mr. Stanley Thompson, the Toronto Golf Architect, has been busily engaged the past two months laying out no less than three new golf courses in Florida. They are the Neilhurst Links, near Jacksonville; the Jacksonville Civic Course; and the Hyde Park Golf Course."

[BCrosby]

Happy to hear the mystery of Hyde Park has been sorted.


Bob 

[Steve_Lovett]

Out of curiosity, who is Jay Smith? I read recently that he's a golf course architect in rural north Florida that the owners of Hyde Park are consulting with to restore the place.

Mike,


It seems that Hyde Park has a bit of a muddled history, design-wise. I've corresponded with Jay Smith, who's discovered some information suggesting that Stanley Thompson's brother, Frank, was involved with the course's original design. Frank and Stanley were excellent golfers who played/competed in the Jacksonville area frequently during winters. Frank was involved with Stanley's businesses, from time to time, over the years, too. It wouldn't surprise me if Frank was involved with establishing the Thompson office in Jacksonville, about the same time Hyde Park was designed and constructed. 


However, I've not seen evidence attributing any other golf course design to Frank Thompson.