Pinehurst suggestions

[Jeff Loh]

David
Thanks for explaining your thinking. 6100 and better ball says a lot.
What do you do from 6600 by yourself?

[John Kavanaugh]

Just how much better does Mid Pines drain than Tobacco Road?

[Jeff Loh]

These days, with overseeding, not much

[Jay Mickle]

As this posting is about a trip in mid May I don't see drainage as being an issue. The area is expecting 4+ inches of rain over the course of the 5 days and the sun is still a bit low in the sky, there will be no firm and fast courses for a while.

[David_Madison]

David
Thanks for explaining your thinking. 6100 and better ball says a lot.
What do you do from 6600 by yourself?

Jeff - Typically 3-6 birdies and 1-3 lost balls. I've never tried grinding out a score there, and there's not a stand of trees or dogleg I haven't try carrying. Even #13, where I've hit PW on my second shot. But that tee shot carry try has cost me well over a dozen golf balls over time.


Serious answer is that my best guess is that if I or any other low handicap was playing reasonably well and maintained discipline, they should be able to achieve a net score of close to par or better a higher percentage of the time than they would at most other challenging courses such as Mid Pines or Pine Needles.

[A.G._Crockett]

I have to be careful when I discuss Tobacco Road, simply because I love the golf course so much.  In the genetic lottery, I somehow got two loyalty genes, and that often comes into play when I talk about golf courses that I love.

Many years ago, Tom Huckaby explained to me that the larger-than-normal gap between the course rating and the slope rating of TR was one of the factors that kept the course from being rated higher, and I get that; I really do.  There are particular shots that a high handicapper just simply won't be able to hit; the second shot into #9 of course comes to mind.  I also agree 100% that a low index who is having a good day and is disciplined can typically post a good score at ANY Strantz course, including The Road, because the targets are so generous, especially off the tee, assuming that the player is playing appropriate tees. 


And so I understand the contention by some that TR is "easy", but I don't find that argument to be wholly consistent, given that it is based on the idea of a good player playing well and hitting intended targets, which is a good recipe for low scores at ANY course.  Whether or not scores at TR are low more often than at other challenging courses isn't provable, and if the course rating folks from the CGA have done their jobs well, probably shouldn't be true anyway. 


But as to ANY possibility of being "boring", that's a point about The Road I don't think I could ever grasp, much less concede.  I don't care how many times you've played the course, the first tee shot will stir interest.  As will the second shot on #1, and so on around the course.  The third shot on #13 is just a cool shot, whether you've hit it once or a thousand times.  The size and shape of the green on #9 had better hold your interest in proper club selection, even if you are a scratch golfer who is having a good day.  The tee shot on #8 is really easy, but depending on the pin position, the second shot is challenging for anybody; end up on the lower level with a back right pin, and you'll do well to three putt.  And so on around the course.  Pulling the right clubs and executing the right shots on #16 is thrilling to me, even when I play the hole poorly. 


The Road is the only place I have EVER played where, with a yardage book, a phone app, and a laser I still don't know exactly what club to hit, even on days when I am playing well, and I find that to be completely exhilarating.  The idea that players, even very good ones, should play it once and then stay away is one to which I can't connect, and is NOT my experience with the people I've been around; most can't get enough of it. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

You just used the words "boring" and "easy" to describe Tobacco Road.
That's fake news!

I did, and I stand by those comments. The visuals are just trickery. They don't really "excite" me from a golf perspective because they're often irrelevant if you just play smart golf.

But for good players who can keep their egos in check regarding their shot selection, Tobacco Road is actually pretty easy. Hugely wide fairways and big greens that when requiring tight, critical shots are typically approached with wedges. A friend and I once played in a better ball event there and he and I shot 66 and 68 respectively and it didn't seem that we were doing anything special. We both just plodded it around the place, made a few putts, and got what we got.

Exactly right.

And while the course is internally one of the most visually striking ever, laying back with irons and fairway woods and playing it conservatively to grind out a score could feel a bit boring. But on the other hand, as a match play venue it's one of the most interesting and exciting course I've ever played.

I say "boring" not even because of laying back but because the "visuals" have very little actual impact on the golf shot to be played. I can't be all that interested in a huge swale in a green 40 feet from the flagstick when I've got a wedge in my hands. I can't care about the opening tee shot when I realize the fairway is 65 yards wide if I carry it 235.

The visuals at Tobacco Road often don't affect the golf shot. I don't mean it's visually boring, but from a purely "golf" perspective, it's "golf-ally" boring. Assuming you can resist all of the times you're goaded into trying to take on too much.

And so I understand the contention by some that TR is "easy", but I don't find that argument to be wholly consistent, given that it is based on the idea of a good player playing well and hitting intended targets, which is a good recipe for low scores at ANY course.

I don't think a good player has to be playing all that well. The targets are quite big at TR. Heck, I think Caledonia is a tougher scoring course than Tobacco Road. I've played both five times.

I don't care how many times you've played the course, the first tee shot will stir interest.

Why? You carry it like 235 and you have a fairway about 65 yards wide. There's mounds, but they don't really come into play for a better player.

As will the second shot on #1, and so on around the course.

I see that differently than you.

I tell people to go play the course once and decide for themselves. And… I recognize I'm in a small minority.

The size and shape of the green on #9 had better hold your interest in proper club selection, even if you are a scratch golfer who is having a good day.

Maybe? It's, what, 135? Uphill, sure, but with a wedge to an 8-iron?

I enjoy Caledonia more than Tobacco Road.


I'm sorry for the slight diversion. If you've never played TR, yes, go play it. Get suckered a few times, even. Have fun.

[Keith Phillips]

Guys, I really appreciate all the feedback and (for now) have decided we'll play a second 18 at #2 rather than playing Tobacco Road.  I will get to TR at some point but frankly my sons and I are high-beta mid-teens handicaps and 'the lost ball' is my least favorite aspect of golf.  I like challenging 'low slope' courses and despise penal golf, largely because it it doesn't suit my game. 

[Jay Mickle]

If you are mid-teens handicaps play a second 18 at Mid Pines you will have a much more enjoyable time.

[A.G._Crockett]

You just used the words "boring" and "easy" to describe Tobacco Road.
That's fake news!

I did, and I stand by those comments. The visuals are just trickery. They don't really "excite" me from a golf perspective because they're often irrelevant if you just play smart golf.

But for good players who can keep their egos in check regarding their shot selection, Tobacco Road is actually pretty easy. Hugely wide fairways and big greens that when requiring tight, critical shots are typically approached with wedges. A friend and I once played in a better ball event there and he and I shot 66 and 68 respectively and it didn't seem that we were doing anything special. We both just plodded it around the place, made a few putts, and got what we got.

Exactly right.

And while the course is internally one of the most visually striking ever, laying back with irons and fairway woods and playing it conservatively to grind out a score could feel a bit boring. But on the other hand, as a match play venue it's one of the most interesting and exciting course I've ever played.

I say "boring" not even because of laying back but because the "visuals" have very little actual impact on the golf shot to be played. I can't be all that interested in a huge swale in a green 40 feet from the flagstick when I've got a wedge in my hands. I can't care about the opening tee shot when I realize the fairway is 65 yards wide if I carry it 235.

The visuals at Tobacco Road often don't affect the golf shot. I don't mean it's visually boring, but from a purely "golf" perspective, it's "golf-ally" boring. Assuming you can resist all of the times you're goaded into trying to take on too much.

And so I understand the contention by some that TR is "easy", but I don't find that argument to be wholly consistent, given that it is based on the idea of a good player playing well and hitting intended targets, which is a good recipe for low scores at ANY course.

I don't think a good player has to be playing all that well. The targets are quite big at TR. Heck, I think Caledonia is a tougher scoring course than Tobacco Road. I've played both five times.

I don't care how many times you've played the course, the first tee shot will stir interest.

Why? You carry it like 235 and you have a fairway about 65 yards wide. There's mounds, but they don't really come into play for a better player.

As will the second shot on #1, and so on around the course.

I see that differently than you.

I tell people to go play the course once and decide for themselves. And… I recognize I'm in a small minority.

The size and shape of the green on #9 had better hold your interest in proper club selection, even if you are a scratch golfer who is having a good day.

Maybe? It's, what, 135? Uphill, sure, but with a wedge to an 8-iron?

I enjoy Caledonia more than Tobacco Road.


I'm sorry for the slight diversion. If you've never played TR, yes, go play it. Get suckered a few times, even. Have fun.

Erik,

Boiled down, your "critique" of Tobacco Road comes down to the fact that good players play well there, and that you like Caledonia better. 


The irony of that, of course, is that you could take the same two points, slightly rephrase the first and insert the word "but" in front of the clause about Caledonia, and it wouldn't be a critique at all.

I'll go one step farther; if Mike Strantz were able to reply, I don't think he would agree with you about the relative resistance to scoring of The Road vs. Caledonia.  True Blue is a far better comparison to TR.

And what do you mean by "suckered"?

[Tim Martin]

You just used the words "boring" and "easy" to describe Tobacco Road.
That's fake news!

I did, and I stand by those comments. The visuals are just trickery. They don't really "excite" me from a golf perspective because they're often irrelevant if you just play smart golf.

But for good players who can keep their egos in check regarding their shot selection, Tobacco Road is actually pretty easy. Hugely wide fairways and big greens that when requiring tight, critical shots are typically approached with wedges. A friend and I once played in a better ball event there and he and I shot 66 and 68 respectively and it didn't seem that we were doing anything special. We both just plodded it around the place, made a few putts, and got what we got.

Exactly right.

And while the course is internally one of the most visually striking ever, laying back with irons and fairway woods and playing it conservatively to grind out a score could feel a bit boring. But on the other hand, as a match play venue it's one of the most interesting and exciting course I've ever played.

I say "boring" not even because of laying back but because the "visuals" have very little actual impact on the golf shot to be played. I can't be all that interested in a huge swale in a green 40 feet from the flagstick when I've got a wedge in my hands. I can't care about the opening tee shot when I realize the fairway is 65 yards wide if I carry it 235.

The visuals at Tobacco Road often don't affect the golf shot. I don't mean it's visually boring, but from a purely "golf" perspective, it's "golf-ally" boring. Assuming you can resist all of the times you're goaded into trying to take on too much.

And so I understand the contention by some that TR is "easy", but I don't find that argument to be wholly consistent, given that it is based on the idea of a good player playing well and hitting intended targets, which is a good recipe for low scores at ANY course.

I don't think a good player has to be playing all that well. The targets are quite big at TR. Heck, I think Caledonia is a tougher scoring course than Tobacco Road. I've played both five times.

I don't care how many times you've played the course, the first tee shot will stir interest.

Why? You carry it like 235 and you have a fairway about 65 yards wide. There's mounds, but they don't really come into play for a better player.

As will the second shot on #1, and so on around the course.

I see that differently than you.

I tell people to go play the course once and decide for themselves. And… I recognize I'm in a small minority.

The size and shape of the green on #9 had better hold your interest in proper club selection, even if you are a scratch golfer who is having a good day.

Maybe? It's, what, 135? Uphill, sure, but with a wedge to an 8-iron?

I enjoy Caledonia more than Tobacco Road.


I'm sorry for the slight diversion. If you've never played TR, yes, go play it. Get suckered a few times, even. Have fun.

Erik,

Boiled down, your "critique" of Tobacco Road comes down to the fact that good players play well there, and that you like Caledonia better. 


The irony of that, of course, is that you could take the same two points, slightly rephrase the first and insert the word "but" in front of the clause about Caledonia, and it wouldn't be a critique at all.

I'll go one step farther; if Mike Strantz were able to reply, I don't think he would agree with you about the relative resistance to scoring of The Road vs. Caledonia.  True Blue is a far better comparison to TR.

And what do you mean by "suckered"?

This was a good thread until it got hijacked into a conversation about what low digit players think about Tobacco Road.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Boiled down, your "critique" of Tobacco Road comes down to the fact that good players play well there, and that you like Caledonia better.

I don't agree and would say that's a poor "boiling down" of my opinion. Not that it's necessarily your fault - I didn't type out or detail my entire opinion, but I think it as I write it, so what you read and what I think are very different things.

The irony of that, of course, is that you could take the same two points, slightly rephrase the first and insert the word "but" in front of the clause about Caledonia, and it wouldn't be a critique at all.

I disagree, and perhaps you only think that because of the bad "boiling down" above.

Here's how I'd boil down my feelings of TR: far too much sizzle, not a lot of steak. For example you talked about the opening tee shot, but it's a boring, nothing tee shot to me to a wide fairway.

And what do you mean by "suckered"?

I thought it was pretty clear: get suckered into trying to go for the shots you have no business going for if you're trying to shoot a good score.


And Tim, I have kept my replies here relatively short, even though it's not really all that far off topic: the OP wanted to know where to play around Pinehurst. But I kept my replies relatively short because it's not strictly on topic, so… I appreciate the moderation, but geez.

[A.G._Crockett]

You just used the words "boring" and "easy" to describe Tobacco Road.
That's fake news!

I did, and I stand by those comments. The visuals are just trickery. They don't really "excite" me from a golf perspective because they're often irrelevant if you just play smart golf.

But for good players who can keep their egos in check regarding their shot selection, Tobacco Road is actually pretty easy. Hugely wide fairways and big greens that when requiring tight, critical shots are typically approached with wedges. A friend and I once played in a better ball event there and he and I shot 66 and 68 respectively and it didn't seem that we were doing anything special. We both just plodded it around the place, made a few putts, and got what we got.

Exactly right.

And while the course is internally one of the most visually striking ever, laying back with irons and fairway woods and playing it conservatively to grind out a score could feel a bit boring. But on the other hand, as a match play venue it's one of the most interesting and exciting course I've ever played.

I say "boring" not even because of laying back but because the "visuals" have very little actual impact on the golf shot to be played. I can't be all that interested in a huge swale in a green 40 feet from the flagstick when I've got a wedge in my hands. I can't care about the opening tee shot when I realize the fairway is 65 yards wide if I carry it 235.

The visuals at Tobacco Road often don't affect the golf shot. I don't mean it's visually boring, but from a purely "golf" perspective, it's "golf-ally" boring. Assuming you can resist all of the times you're goaded into trying to take on too much.

And so I understand the contention by some that TR is "easy", but I don't find that argument to be wholly consistent, given that it is based on the idea of a good player playing well and hitting intended targets, which is a good recipe for low scores at ANY course.

I don't think a good player has to be playing all that well. The targets are quite big at TR. Heck, I think Caledonia is a tougher scoring course than Tobacco Road. I've played both five times.

I don't care how many times you've played the course, the first tee shot will stir interest.

Why? You carry it like 235 and you have a fairway about 65 yards wide. There's mounds, but they don't really come into play for a better player.

As will the second shot on #1, and so on around the course.

I see that differently than you.

I tell people to go play the course once and decide for themselves. And… I recognize I'm in a small minority.

The size and shape of the green on #9 had better hold your interest in proper club selection, even if you are a scratch golfer who is having a good day.

Maybe? It's, what, 135? Uphill, sure, but with a wedge to an 8-iron?

I enjoy Caledonia more than Tobacco Road.


I'm sorry for the slight diversion. If you've never played TR, yes, go play it. Get suckered a few times, even. Have fun.

Erik,

Boiled down, your "critique" of Tobacco Road comes down to the fact that good players play well there, and that you like Caledonia better. 


The irony of that, of course, is that you could take the same two points, slightly rephrase the first and insert the word "but" in front of the clause about Caledonia, and it wouldn't be a critique at all.

I'll go one step farther; if Mike Strantz were able to reply, I don't think he would agree with you about the relative resistance to scoring of The Road vs. Caledonia.  True Blue is a far better comparison to TR.

And what do you mean by "suckered"?

This was a good thread until it got hijacked into a conversation about what low digit players think about Tobacco Road.

Tim,

I agree, and I'm sorry for my part in the threadjack, though I'm not sure I'd qualify as a "low digit player". 


I really struggle with what to say to people who are being "advised" ON A GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE BOARD not to see Tobacco Road when they have a chance, and certainly vs. playing another course a second time.  It is an absolutely unique piece of landscape art that also happens to be a great golf course, and telling someone to pass on seeing it IF you have a real interest in GCA isn't something I can't really grasp.

I've already admitted my bias toward TR; I can't get enough of the place.  Sometimes my score there is good, and sometimes it's not, like any other golf course; that's a different discussion.  But my appreciation of GCA would be far, far diminished if I'd never seen it, or even if I'd only seen it once, and I gain more appreciation of what Mike Strantz did there every time I go. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I really struggle with what to say to people who are being "advised" ON A GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE BOARD not to see Tobacco Road when they have a chance

When did I do that? I tell people to play it at least once, because it's something to see. The better players I've known tend to enjoy it less than the 9s or 12s or 17s and are less likely to play it a third or seventh time. But I tell people to see it at least once. And I said something like that in my first post here.

, and certainly vs. playing another course a second time.

If they've never seen it before, sure. But I'll play ten rounds at several area courses before I play another at TR.

It is an absolutely unique piece of landscape art that also happens to be a great golf course, and telling someone to pass on seeing it IF you have a real interest in GCA isn't something I can't really grasp.

Again, I don't think anyone's done that. Or I haven't, at least.

[Jeff Loh]

Erik
Please break down those ten rounds NOT at TR.
Just curious.

[A.G._Crockett]

Erik
Please break down those ten rounds NOT at TR.
Just curious.

Jeff,

I'm curious, too, and I'd add that the idea that one could fully appreciate ANY great golf course, perhaps especially a Strantz course and perhaps especially Tobacco Road, in one play is remarkable. 


This is, after all, a golf course architecture discussion group.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Erik
Please break down those ten rounds NOT at TR.
Just curious.

I haven't played a ton of golf in Pinehurst, and some of the courses I played long enough ago that the conditions may have changed, or the course (like The Pit) has closed. Of those I feel I could judge having at least walked all 18 (and in no order):

• Mid-Pines
• Pine Needles
• #2
• #4
• #8
• Mid South
• Dormie Club

I've never played Tot Hill, so that might make my list just to check it out. I'm not against Strantz - I've had my college team play True Blue/Caledonia even for the added cost each year we've gone to Myrtle Beach on a spring break trip.

Also, before the #2 renovation (I've not played #2 after the renovation), I put Pine Needles above #2 for my personal list.

I'm perfectly content being in a small minority when it comes to Tobacco Road. Doesn't bug me at all.

I'm curious, too, and I'd add that the idea that one could fully appreciate ANY great golf course, perhaps especially a Strantz course and perhaps especially Tobacco Road, in one play is remarkable. 

Who said anything like that? Again, I'll point out that even in this discussion I've said that I encourage people to play it at least once.

[John Kavanaugh]

Hello people, the guy decided to play an extra round on #2 with his sons. We did good.