A Downslope That Gathers Balls - Good Design?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Curious what the actual architects here think.

Imagine a hole where there's maybe a 40-yard downslope that sends balls hit anywhere on it to about the same place. Dustin Johnson can fly it with the driver, but his ball lands and rolls out a few yards, while Jim Furyk lands his driver near the top of the hill and it rolls to the same place as Dustin Johnson's driver.

Or, Dustin can hit a 3-iron to the top of the hill and wind up in almost the same place as his tee shot. If it's at a non-PGA Tour course, adjust the players for the "longer hitting guys at the club" and "the shorter hitting guys at the club.

Is a hole like this considered "fair"? If not, does it really matter so long as this isn't a feature of too many holes on a single course? Is it "good design" or is the answer the same as to the first question: it's fine, so long as it's not repeated too often? What are the other positives (if any) and negatives to this?

The 10th at Augusta springs to mind, but it may not be quite the same, as it requires shape, and the slope is somewhat diagonal, so some players can still leave themselves back up too far, if I'm remembering correctly. Not everyone ends up in the same general area on 10.

[Jeff Schley]

Kapalua Plantation also comes to mind, certainly 18, but also the par 4 that Dustin drove last year has huge sloping fairway down to the hole.  You do need to carry a certain distance however to get the kick forward.  I have no problem with those elements for if there is a feature of 1-2 holes it adds variety IMO.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Kapalua Plantation also comes to mind, certainly 18, but also the par 4 that Dustin drove last year has huge sloping fairway down to the hole.  You do need to carry a certain distance however to get the kick forward.  I have no problem with those elements for if there is a feature of 1-2 holes it adds variety IMO.

If this is "okay" is it because the bomber can still have the advantage of hitting a 2-iron or something to reach the same slope, while the short hitter still has to hit a driver, so they're still separated somewhat by their abilities?

[Tom_Doak]

Eric:

"Fair" is up to you guys to debate; I think everything is fair in love and war and golf, as long as we aren't consistently punishing one particular player.

That's what usually happens, though.  Long hitters get a bonus from their drives pretty regularly, because to make the second shot visible on rolling ground, we tend to put the landing area where a shorter hitter can see over the crest . . . and a really long hitter will then drive over it onto the downslope. 

Good players see nothing wrong with the feature you describe when it rewards THEIR good drive with extra kick . . . I've heard it called a "turbo slot".  The one you described is a turbo slot for Jim Furyk instead of Dustin Johnson, as if there's something wrong with that.

There should be more of these for short hitters, really.  [The 5th & the old 8th hole at Dunluce are great examples.]  The 10th at Shinnecock is another, with the twist that some people would rather stay up top than leave themselves a much shorter shot from a downhill lie.

[Jeff Schley]

Kapalua Plantation also comes to mind, certainly 18, but also the par 4 that Dustin drove last year has huge sloping fairway down to the hole.  You do need to carry a certain distance however to get the kick forward.  I have no problem with those elements for if there is a feature of 1-2 holes it adds variety IMO.

If this is "okay" is it because the bomber can still have the advantage of hitting a 2-iron or something to reach the same slope, while the short hitter still has to hit a driver, so they're still separated somewhat by their abilities?

True.  Although the bomber bascially can't drive farther than you on such holes, so although they can hit 2 iron and get to the same spot, if they hit driver they still are going to be in the same spot as the short guy.  There was a hole at Austin CC where guys were bombing it downhill, downwind and hitting hybids for everyone ended in the same spot basically.  I liked that variety myself.

[Peter Pallotta]

I think this is an example of how equipment/technology has impacted the game in a more subtle way than simply via increased driving distances, and how this in turn might change the conversation re gca. 

With the lower spinning balls and the hot-faced and higher-launching 2 & 3 hybrids and driving irons that (as one consequence) have replaced traditional long irons and that now fill even the tour player's bag, and with the optimized shaft-head combinations on drivers that make them both very long and very forgiving for all top-level golfers, it seems to me that the 'relative advantage' of the long hitter over the shorter hitter on golf holes like these is completely different than it was 5-10-15 years ago.

In one sense, I think the long hitter -- even though he can now carry it 320+ yards -- actually has less relative advantage over the shorter hitter than ever before, on the drive/tee shot and on the approach shot both. (I say "shorter hitter" and not "short hitter" intentionally -- as I think at the highest levels of the game the latter now has no chance at all to regularly compete).

I don't know if this is a positive or negative development, a good or bad thing, fair or not -- but it sure does seem that that older 'frameworks' that we once used to discuss gca in this context really are going out the window as we speak.   






 

[Joe Sponcia]

This sounds like exactly 5-6 holes on every Fazio I've ever played.

[Jim Sherma]

As long as the collection area is broad enough that you don’t end up with a divot field it certainly does not fall into “bad design”. Ballyhack #5 is an example where I think this is done very well.

[Daryl David]

I've heard it called a "turbo slot"

Where I play, they are called “senior speed slots”. The only chance “veteran” players ever have to get close to the young guns.

[Jon Wiggett]

I got to the phrase 'is this fair' before I realised the thread should have been marked OT 

[Thomas Dai]

Speed slots or whatever we wish to call them can be cunning as well, like when landing on one takes you forward but gives you a worse angle for your next shot.
Atb

[Mark_Fine]

There is generally nothing wrong with this kind of design feature.  We can all cite examples of it used everywhere.  What I personally don’t like, however, is when all the balls end up/collect in a drainage basin.  To me that is poor design (especially when it is around greens).  When almost every ball rolls into a collection area "with a grate", that to me that is sloppy design and not enough attention being paid to more creative drainage options. 


By the way, eliminate the word “fair”!

[Lou_Duran]

There is generally nothing wrong with this kind of design feature.  We can all cite examples of it used everywhere.  What I personally don’t like, however, is when all the balls end up/collect in a drainage basin.  To me that is poor design (especially when it is around greens).  When almost every ball rolls into a collection area "with a grate", that to me that is sloppy design and not enough attention being paid to more creative drainage options. 

Is there a way to create rolling terrain on a mostly flat, heavy soils site without digging catch basis to drain the course?

Flatish fairways with 2-3° slope for surface drainage aren't terribly exciting. 

Is it a trade-off: flat and repetitive lies vs. interest, variety and soft, divoted hollows?  I suspect that the Weibrings, Brauers, and the Morrishes of the SW would not agree it is "sloppy design", though I think CBs are overused down here.

[Mark_Fine]

Lou,
I think catch basins have become a crutch for many architects.  Instead of working creatively with the contour they have they just create what they want.  Sometimes this works out great and sometimes it doesn’t.   


I spend most of my time working on classic golf courses and it is amazing how those guys managed water and drainage.  How many catch basins do you find on classic designs? Thoss Architects were incredible with surface drainage. 


Yes I realize times have chsnged and often architects need to move and collect and hold water on the course before allowing it to drain away and/or off the property in a controlled manner.  I’ve been involved in quite a few projects like that over the last fifteen years.  That said, I still think catch basins are used too often when other more suitable options could have/would have been available given a little more design effort and much more preferred.


Just another pet peeve of mine.


Mark

[Ira Fishman]

As a short hitter who gets shorter every year, I cannot wait to get to a hole with a speed slot. However, it strikes me that on some Golden Age courses, the speed slot holes that reward me for a lucky drive may have ironically been designed to reward a long hitter when the course was originally designed. Mid Pines 5 and 15 are examples of my question for Par 5s.


Ira