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Jason Thurman

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For those about to rock
« on: December 20, 2018, 11:28:48 AM »
I've been doing some work in the greater Charlotte area off and on this year, and played a little bit of golf in the area as I've had the chance. Two courses that stand out as being very different from what I'm used to at home are Tot Hill Farm and Rocky River at Concord. Tot Hill is (in?)famous for its rock outcrops, many situated near target areas. They're not just visually intimidating - I hit three of them during my round there a few months back, and the result was two lost balls and another that splashed into the water on 16. Rocky River is a little tamer, but features a massive outcrop in the landing zone on 3 (think 13 at Fossil Trace) and exposed stone around quite a few greensites.


I don't know if I'd want a steady diet of Tot Hill, but I was less annoyed by the rub of the rock than I might have expected. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed Rocky River - I thought it was a pretty enjoyable walk on a budget-friendly public course with pretty fun greens. And I really enjoyed a return visit to Lookout Mountain in all its rocky glory back in November.


There's probably a fine line between maintaining playability and allowing for the excitement of a crazy bounce or two. Where is the line?
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Tom_Doak

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2018, 11:55:21 AM »
Where is the line?


I think the line is in people's heads.


There is certainly a difference between people on how they think about this, which is at least partly a function of how they play golf.  If you play for fun, or play matches against your friends, or play Stableford comps, then the costliness of a bad bounce is mitigated, and you probably have more stomach for such features.  If you're a card-and-pencil, return every score person, that bad bounce might cost you two or three shots and will quickly be discarded into the "unfair" pile.
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Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2018, 10:13:05 AM »
I'd estimate that at least 90% of claims of a hole or course or feature being "unfair" stem from a particular golfer's unwillingness to take responsible for his or her poor execution and decision-making. For this reason, courses like Tot Hill Farm are essential to the game because they test something most golfers feel entitled not to have tested: their patience.
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Kyle Harris

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2018, 10:24:51 AM »
The only good golf stories involve making 2 or 8.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2018, 10:30:10 AM »
This one comes to mind for me!  ;)


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Mike Hendren

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2018, 10:35:52 AM »
Fun course.  Setting aside the rocks, there are two excellent holes at Tot Hill Farm.  The 7th features a nifty blind tee shot out of a chute over top shot bunkers to an extremely wide fairway, then a short iron to an angled green fronted by a creek.    The 17th is an outstanding homage to the Road Hole, thought it bends in the opposite direction.   

Mike
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Michael Whitaker

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2018, 11:39:51 AM »
Is this rocky enough for you?

« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 11:47:30 AM by Michael Whitaker »
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Donovan Childers

Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2018, 07:10:03 PM »
I always liked Tot Hill, it played a little harder than Tobacco Road to me. If I ever get to play it a few more times, I might change my mind.
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MKrohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2018, 10:03:06 PM »

I've not played the courses you mentioned however I will take a rocky outcrop over a concrete path.


Two courses that come to mind with scattered outcrops, sometimes on the fairway are Fountainbleu (Fr) and Arrowtown (NZ), I like the visual rather than bunkers/water.
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Lyndell Young

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2018, 05:30:42 PM »
Tot Hill is a very bold undertaking using rock as the main feature of the design. As much as I love Mike I think sand is much more desirable and playable!
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Steve Lang

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2018, 09:23:26 PM »
We salute you!


Tot Hill is a spice of life, not a diet staple, enjoy!
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Jason Thurman

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2018, 01:22:28 AM »
Sometimes I look at pics of Greywalls and think it looks pretty sketchy. Maybe too much rock. And it's like a 53 hour drive or flying CVG > DTW > DMK > MQT. Am I being a pansy?
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"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

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ward peyronnin

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2018, 12:27:19 PM »
With your game and taking on courses like those and driving thru the neighborhood regularly to get to your former course; no you are no pansy Jason
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Steve Lang

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2018, 05:09:23 PM »
Jason,


I'd say less rock in play at Greywalls... so maybe a wussy if you're traveling from CVG (Covington/Cinti)... 12 hour drive and all



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Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2018, 02:39:44 PM »
This was the last course I worked on for Carrick Design
It's called Muskoka Bay Club and it's got a ton of rock

A few examples ... photos linked from the "Interweb"

Par 4 - 9th Hole



Par 3 - 6th green



Par 4 - 3rd Hole



x



x
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 02:52:57 PM by Ian Andrew »
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Bill Seitz

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2019, 05:40:32 PM »
Quote from: Steve Lang on December 30, 2018, 05:09:23 PM
Jason,


I'd say less rock in play at Greywalls... so maybe a wussy if you're traveling from CVG (Covington/Cinti)... 12 hour drive and all


Yeah, only five or six holes by my count.  And really maybe only three where I'd call it a real hazard.  Plus the one rock on 10.  It's definitely memorable, and makes a big impression because it comes early in the round, but it's not like there's exposed rock all over the course.  I suppose if you haven't been there, it may seem like there's more rock in play because those are the holes you're most likely to see in pictures.
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Michael Whitaker

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2019, 06:24:02 PM »
Ian - WOW! That's some serious rock in play there!!! Did you know from the beginning that much rock was going to be exposed and in play... or, was it something that forced itself upon you during construction?

I ask because one of the owners of Tot Hill Farm told me that Mike Strantz didn't realize so much rock would be in play at Tot Hill Farm until they started to dig. Supposedly, he told the owners it would take a million extra dollars to dynamite and move the rock and they said "No!" So, he had to incorporate most of it into the design. I don't know if this story is really true or just a tale that the owner tells to explain the amount of rock in play... but, he seemed sincere!  ;D
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Peter Pallotta

Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2019, 07:56:33 PM »
Ian's post brought to mind Galt, a lesser known Thompson (that I believe Ian did some work on). There's a lovely Par 3 there, river and wetlands all along the left side, a huge rock outcropping to the right, fronting/near a green that is seemingly (but not actually) tucked partly behind it.
A lovely setting for an easier than it looks Par 3 -- no one hit the rock, but one of us pulled it left into the wetlands, one of us went long, one of us hit & held the green, and one of us (me) timidly steered a half-punched mid iron short....all with a big welcoming green staring us right in the face just some 150 yards away.
P
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 07:58:12 PM by Peter Pallotta »
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Lyndell Young

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2019, 08:40:25 PM »
Ian the pictures of Muskoka are beautiful, most of the the holes you reference have plenty of width except for #9 which may have a short approach.  I pulled up some aerial shots of Muskoka and the rock exposed looks balanced over the site. How do you feel about the amount of rock in play .  Also the rock is exposed bedrock which looks natural rather than piling blasted extra rock material. I know Mike Strantz and Forrest Fezler spent many a day using excess rock to form walls to emulate farm walls in Scotland/ Ireland so as to not look unnatural but as Michael mentioned they just had so much rock to deal with.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 04:24:30 PM by Lyndell Young »
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Wayne_Kozun

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2019, 08:57:56 PM »
Muskoka has a number of courses with lots of rock as that is one of the main features of the Canadian Shield which begins around the Muskoka area.  Perhaps the most (in)famous is The Rock which was designed by Faldo and then closed and had major renos after a couple of years because it was too hard..  Other Rocky Muskoka courses include Grandview, Lake Joseph, etc - although I can't recall how many of them have significant rock outcroppings.
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Jeff Schley

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2019, 06:57:47 AM »
Quote from: Wayne_Kozun on January 03, 2019, 08:57:56 PM
Muskoka has a number of courses with lots of rock as that is one of the main features of the Canadian Shield which begins around the Muskoka area.  Perhaps the most (in)famous is The Rock which was designed by Faldo and then closed and had major renos after a couple of years because it was too hard..  Other Rocky Muskoka courses include Grandview, Lake Joseph, etc - although I can't recall how many of them have significant rock outcroppings.
What did they have to do to soften it?  Did it entail removing some of the rock features themselves?
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Ian Andrew

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Re: For those about to rock
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2019, 05:34:07 PM »
Quote from: Michael Whitaker on January 03, 2019, 06:24:02 PM
was it something that forced itself upon you during construction?


It was a given. I spent six weeks the first year (of two) walking equipment around the site doing test digs looking for 250,000 cu.m. of sand. Everything that is golf, except for three holes, involves adding sand over the granite to a depth of a metre (three feet). That was a recommendation from our soils specialist.


The 9th was Doug's conundrum ... it solved a routing issue ... but was it a good hole.
The key is the green behind is 10,000 sq.ft punchbowl and the fairway in front is like a skatepark.
I have played a 120 yard runner up the gap ... it's quite "self-correcting"  ;)
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