[Scott Warren]

Many of my points have already been made, such as the fact it's a hotline to potential new members, not to mention that the club gets the list of buyers' email addresses for future marketing.

It's short-sighted to suggest that if you divide an annual membership by # of rounds you get the price below which members will be upset to see rounds sold.

For starters a winter round is not worth nearly as much -- especially in the north -- as a BST round. The members know that and I would suggest member play is far less in every British club in the winter.

Also, dividing a membership by # of rounds ignores the fact that as a member you receive a number of opportunities and benefits that the non-member misses out on.

Clubs will make decisions for reasons that might not make sense outside a committee room and so provided the management communicates the reason behind such decisions to the membership and it's acceptable to the members, it's not really for anyone else to judge.

But as for what the members see, a summer visitor round at CGC is £30. The club is ostensibly selling a winter round for £13 as a one-off special. If I'm a member, I'm not bothered by that (and wasn't when my club did a similar thing).

Cavendish also happens to be selling trial memberships of three months April-June for £100 and if you join now you get the winter for free, so the Groupon deal seems to me a smart way to get prospective buyers of that value membership through the door so they can be sold on it.

Full membership of the club is £776/year, so if I'm playing 50 rounds as a member, I'm paying £15.52 a round, making the £13 the coupon buyer pays to play in winter again not insulting in the slightest.

And with two and a half hours to go, they've sold 170 of them.

ADRIAN STIFF:The Club, Cavendish will receive £11 which they have to pay £2 Vat on thus netting £9 for the two ball from which they will supply £2 worth of tea and biscuit and around £3 buggy fuel/ wear, giving them a nett result of £2 per person. They might buy a lunch and have a beer afterwards which might give a further £2 profit.

In reality they're probably eating 20p worth of tea and biscuits between them and if the conditions allow use of a cart on the course is the petrol/electricity cost that high? In any case, we have established I think that the raw profits of selling these deals is not the only benefit for the club, or even part of the likely motivation.

If they've sold 170 of these and they get £7 per deal, they make £1,190, still nothing to sneeze at in a quiet period but if they end up getting 10 of those 340 golfers to join, that's £8,950. If they sell 20... if they sell 30... etc.

ADRIAN STIFF: In this case a big mistake is allowing the coupon to extend to March 31st, thats 5 and a half months

It doesn't. The coupon expires on March 4. A touch over four and a half months.

[Adrian_Stiff]

You are not a learner Scott. The journalist bit has gottoo much in the way you have totally missed the points. You dont have any real idea what it costs to run a golf course and how to balance the right equations yet you still argue and pick at points that are insignificant to defend your corner. 4 months 5 months 6 months does not matter, its too long. If you can collect everyone on the same day or days it can make more sense to attract members if you want members show the course at its best not its worst.
 
Dividing costs by rounds of golf is just simplistic, theres no need to factor winter summer. Cavendish at £30 a round and £776 annual is about right. 50 rounds to balance a subscription is not acceptable, thriving clubs operate at 20 times PPR ratio and clubs do least well aat 30 PPR ratio.
Its costs about 7p just to wash a cup up, if you are renting buggies or buying them there is a wear charge, with fuel might be £2 - £4 might be the daily rent for them, it might cost £3 per day if they are owned, £5 would be a fair cost price.

[Scott Warren]

Again with playing the man rather than the ball.

My point, Adrian, was not one of balancing membership and costs, but of how this deal is likely to be viewed by a CGC member.

Even at 30 rounds a year, the per-round cost of full membership is about 25 quid. And that's disregarding the ability of a member to use the clubhouse, driving range, putting green, play in club comps and inter-club events, be part of a large group of like-minded golfers etc etc etc.

This deal is 13 quid for one game in winter, not on a Saturday and it's fairly clear they're trying to get new heads through the door who might buy a cheap trial membership through until June and then might upgrade to a 5, 6 or 7 day membership after that, yet you still quibble over the cost of washing a teacup, ignoring the big picture.

You often mention on here that this deal or that deal is "too low a cost for a round of golf", but what is too low a cost in your opinion to attract a new member?

This is a method of marketing the club and attracting members that actually makes the club a bit of money, as opposed to almost all other forms of marketing/attracting members that cost significant amounts.

[Sean_A]

HHHmmm, a membership drive in winter for wet course?  Sorry, the time to recruit is when the course is at its best, not when temps are on in mid-October.  That sure wouldn't entice me to join.  I also don't believe a short term gain of a few thousand quid is worth cheapening the product unless the club is absolutely desperate for cash and that could well be the case.  Cavendish doesn't strike me as a particularly cheap course to maintain as it is undeniably wet and the greens tend to be in good order.

I do disagree with Adrian concerning county cards.  This is a scheme designed to benefit members of clubs which is a promotion for joining a club.

Ciao     

[Duncan Cheslett]

The idea that this may be a membership drive is something of a red herring, in my view.

For all its pedigree and merits as a golf course, Cavendish has the double misfortune to lie not only in one of the wettest, windiest, and most miserable spots in England, but also in a small parochial town which has been in decline for 50 years or more.

Don't get me wrong - on a lovely summer's afternoon there is no more glorious place in the country; the problem is that for maybe 250 days per year the weather can make Cavendish a desperate ordeal.

I live in the nearest major centre of population to Buxton - Stockport is a 20 minute drive away. Yet Cavendish would not even make my short-list of clubs to join; I just would not be able to get sufficient value from it. It's too far away to 'pop in' after work or for a casual few holes on the spur of the moment, and the ever-present threat of abysmal weather conditions would mean that pre-arranged games would inevitably lead to frequent disappointment. If I was a Buxton resident I would put up with these things; no way however, would I (or anyone else) commute in as a full member.

Yet this Groupon offer is targeted at the whole of Manchester - now unless Cavendish are planning on offering some kind of special 'country' membership to residents of the Manchester conurbation I cannot see how they can hope to attract anyone to join - particularly after they have set the green fee which they are prepared to accept at £13 including a buggy!

I see this as a short-term desperate grab for cash. That they need to do this now, just as the season is drawing to a close, does not auger well. Surely though, if Cavendish need to boost revenue, they would be better advised to market the place during the summer months when the long evenings can make this such a special place.

Perhaps though, the members want the course to themselves then!

No-one would build a golf course in a place like Buxton these days, unless it was part of a grand hotel resort. Conceived and built as a vanity project by the then Duke of Devonshire it is a great course in a lovely setting in a largely grotty town with awful weather. Not only must it attract sufficient members from the impoverished population of said one-horse town; it must compete for them with another golf club - Buxton and High Peak - which has a far more visible presence on the main A6 towards Manchester.

Running a golf club these days is difficult for everyone - I suspect Cavendish has more difficulties than most. I have decided against buying the Groupon offer; instead I will make a point of playing Cavendish more often using the reciprocal green fee arrangement they have with other MacKenzie courses. That way all my money goes to the club.

[Scott Warren]

Duncan,

Hew far from CGC is downtown Manchester?

"Country" memberships begin for those living just 25 miles away.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Incidentally, browsing Buxton & High Peak's website this came to my attention;

http://www.bhpgc.co.uk/academy%20starter%20pack.html

This seems like an excellent idea to me. What do you think, Adrian?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan,

Hew far from CGC is downtown Manchester?

"Country" memberships begin for those living just 25 miles away.

Centre of Manchester to Cavendish GC is exactly 25 miles according to AA routefinder. Unfortunately this rules out the whole swathe of affluent suburbia to the south of Manchester. As I pointed out earlier I see little possibility of Cavendish attracting full members from much outside Buxton so perhaps they should rethink the 25 mile rule and pull in some more country members who fancy a second club up in the hills...

[Adam Lawrence]

I've got a pal who's a Cavendish member, and he lives in Bakewell, which is I guess about 15 miles away, so they clearly have _some_ members who don't live in the town!

I think 25 miles is already the nearest country membership limit I've ever seen, so I couldn't see it being reduced any more. And in any case, at that level of country membership you're only saving a hundred and fifty quid a year, which is nice for sure, but isn't really transformational - you would still need twenty odd rounds at the club to make it value for money.

[Adrian_Stiff]

If you use a Groupon to attract membership you are really looking your target area being within 30 minute drive time. In the UK we are not used to travelling as far as others in the world. 90% of a UK membership will fall be attracted from inside this mythical band and 20 minutes is probably 80%.

If you are looking to just have a game of golf then  the mythical circle can extend to 60 perhaps even 90 minutes.

I will publish soon statistics soon how our trial is going but mainly our take up were these same sort of figures.

I saw no point in using our Groupon promotion outside of 30 miles.

If Cavendish used this to attract members then I think the mistake was not gathering everyone on the same day or days so it became a promotional opportunity...that could make sense although your take up would be significantly less.

[Scott Warren]

Adrian,

You're 100% right about that, I think, but I'd add that I don't think many other countries would be >30mins either.

Maybe 8-9 months ago I had a thread her asking questions about choosing a club and the overwhelming reply to "how far from home/office is too far?" was ~15mins, with a preference for it being 5-10mins.

That said, I think 25-30 is more common in Aus, but I don't think you'll get too many active home club members (once a week or more with regularity) from outside that radius.

I still remain unconvinced that many people will leave a club and sustain themselves on "Groupon golf" if they play regularly. There may be more folks who've never belonged to a club and don't get the culture they're missing out on by not belonging, as well as guys who don't have as much time and just play once a month somewhere... But you're right when you say I don't know nawt about running a club, I just know what I see and hear as a keen, active, curious golfer who plays a fair bit in different places.

PS -- Seems the offer is available for another four days now, with the club having sold 214 of them in the first day and a bit.

[Mark Chaplin]

Adam you are right about 25 miles being close for country membership. Deal is 35 crow flies but due to the road layout unless you do 30mph on country lanes it's actually 49 miles driving on main roads to the limit or around an hour.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Scott - What I see everyday and I was talking to another Director of Golf yesterday and he is exactly the same is, Members moving around a lot now. Golf Memberships are quite expensive now in the UK and a lot of clubs are now fighting for business, the situation has dramatically changed from "We have a waiting list, you need to be proposed, interviewed and then we might let you in" to "Come in sir, yes you can pay by direct debit, there is no joining fee" this easy in situation also equals an easy out situation, some members are only members for a year because another course has cut the price, if as a member you play 40 -50 times you get great value at almost any club the ones that play 40-50 times are not the problem. The ones that play less than 20 times per year are not getting their value, remember I said a posts back about the PPR ratio.... you need it low. These sub 20 men look for cheaper ways to golf, if you extend sub 20s to sub 30s there will be even more non members.
Groupons (for green fees), 2-4-1s and other schemes encourage cheaper golf and they entice members away rather than attract. The point you make about the values of the range, etc as additions to membership just dont get into the radar of the person that is assessing how often he plays and how much. £800 is an good average UK membership, 40 plays is a fair amount so £20 is a fair PPR.
All buisness's that sell their product cheaper than they can make it will go bust. 'Eleven more pounds golf' will see the man on the fence go from member to nomad. It is interesting Cavendish has extended the offer, they would have been asked if they wanted to, they must see their offer as a success and clearly not as I do. The problem with Groupon is you dont really get much of the money, you have to crazy discount, they take half, they charge Vat on that, theres not much left. It can only really be to promote something and in this case with the Winter and not so good conditions I dont see the catch.

[Matt Day]

We've taken the approach of resourcing the development and management of our own database, with the aim of having the ability to promote our own deals without giving 50% to scoopon, groupon, ouffer, dial a deal, living social etc etc etc

This is for a busy public course, and may not work for a course like Cavendish.

As a starting point we are using web based products, Capsule CRM to manage the database and MailChimp to distribute. Excluding the labour costs and development costs for an email template, Capsule is $12 per month and MailChimp $150 per month for 10-20,000 emails (unlimited sends)

First email going out in 2-3 weeks, we'll see how it unfolds 

[John Mayhugh]

I admittedly know nothing about UK club memberships, but find it hard to believe that members there are using average cost per round to decide if they want to maintain a membership.  People are almost always going to pay a premium just to be part of a club, and the successful ones manage to justify that. 

The Groupon offering is likely just a marketing activity and not a revenue chase.  As such, it may be perfectly OK that costs are barely covered, if at all.  The offering comes with risks of cheapening the image of the club, cannibalizing other sales, and annoying members.  But it might also introduce future members or regular greens fee paying guests to the club, which is what Cavendish is most likely hoping for.  I tend to think it will do more harm than good, as the course won't be exposed at its best condition-wise.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I admittedly know nothing about UK club memberships, but find it hard to believe that members there are using average cost per round to decide if they want to maintain a membership.  People are almost always going to pay a premium just to be part of a club, and the successful ones manage to justify that. 

The UK model is very different to the US one. They dont think premium, its the other way here. In the UK a lot of members are dropping their clubs simply because they play golf in group outings and so play less on their home courses, they anaylse their golf and simply do not get the moneys worth, probably 9 out 10 are conscious of it. The days where you get a member who plays a few times a year and he keeps rejoining are gone. We have 1100 members and have been open 10 years, if you joined tommorow you would be number 4135, that means we have lost 3000 members. I think we have about 10 of the first 100 members left. Going back 20-30 years, members seemed to members for life. Most days when I check the green fees there are former members playing that are now paying the daily fee. Members either guess how many rounds the play correctly or they guess that they have played more than they have, they dont seem to guess less. We have less than 10 members that play in excess of 100 rounds per year. 100 would claim they do.

[Duncan Cheslett]

The idea that this may be a membership drive is something of a red herring, in my view.

For all its pedigree and merits as a golf course, Cavendish has the double misfortune to lie not only in one of the wettest, windiest, and most miserable spots in England, but also in a small parochial town which has been in decline for 50 years or more.

Don't get me wrong - on a lovely summer's afternoon there is no more glorious place in the country; the problem is that for maybe 250 days per year the weather can make Cavendish a desperate ordeal.

I live in the nearest major centre of population to Buxton - Stockport is a 20 minute drive away. Yet Cavendish would not even make my short-list of clubs to join; I just would not be able to get sufficient value from it. It's too far away to 'pop in' after work or for a casual few holes on the spur of the moment, and the ever-present threat of abysmal weather conditions would mean that pre-arranged games would inevitably lead to frequent disappointment. If I was a Buxton resident I would put up with these things; no way however, would I (or anyone else) commute in as a full member.

Yet this Groupon offer is targeted at the whole of Manchester - now unless Cavendish are planning on offering some kind of special 'country' membership to residents of the Manchester conurbation I cannot see how they can hope to attract anyone to join - particularly after they have set the green fee which they are prepared to accept at £13 including a buggy!

I see this as a short-term desperate grab for cash. That they need to do this now, just as the season is drawing to a close, does not auger well. Surely though, if Cavendish need to boost revenue, they would be better advised to market the place during the summer months when the long evenings can make this such a special place.

Perhaps though, the members want the course to themselves then!

No-one would build a golf course in a place like Buxton these days, unless it was part of a grand hotel resort. Conceived and built as a vanity project by the then Duke of Devonshire it is a great course in a lovely setting in a largely grotty town with awful weather. Not only must it attract sufficient members from the impoverished population of said one-horse town; it must compete for them with another golf club - Buxton and High Peak - which has a far more visible presence on the main A6 towards Manchester.

Running a golf club these days is difficult for everyone - I suspect Cavendish has more difficulties than most. I have decided against buying the Groupon offer; instead I will make a point of playing Cavendish more often using the reciprocal green fee arrangement they have with other MacKenzie courses. That way all my money goes to the club.

Wow! How things change!


I just chanced upon this old thread while searching for something else.


I was wrong about Cavendish on so many fronts.


Firstly, Buxton is a lovely town. My comments above were based on a couple of visits in the late 90s/early 00s when the place had a definite feeling of decay and living on past glories. Since then however, Buxton has turned itself around magnificently and is becoming a fabulous destination for a day trip or weekend away for the millions of people who live within an hour or so's drive. The transformation in the once dilapidated Crescent is a case in point. A £65m project to restore this Georgian masterpiece is nearing completion and the boost to the morale of the town is palpable.


buxtonhotelspa-00 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

And there's the Opera House...

Opera House by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

And England's oldest surviving hotel...

Old Hall Hotel by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr


There is also a thriving cafe culture, craft beer scene, good restaurants, and moderately debauched nightlife opportunities (or so I'm told  )

I was also completely wrong about Cavendish's catchment area. After biting the bullet myself and committing to a 30 minute commute each time I play golf I find I'm far from alone! Around a third of the membership lives well outside Buxton and has a similar or greater distance to travel as myself. Most will pass several other golf clubs along the way. Clearly people will travel 30-40 minutes to their club if the experience is good enough!

I was even wrong about the weather! Admittedly the summer was exceptional this year, but even at the end of December the course is in fine condition, with only a couple of greens even remotely soft. I have only got wet once, and I have played at least once a week since the dry weather ended in September.


Cavendish's society and green fee income is impressive - nearly three times the level of my previous club. Usefully, there is little tradition among members of Sunday play, leaving the day open to potential visitors. One Sunday in August we had seven different societies on the course!  Despite having less than 200 full members Cavendish has made a small profit this year - largely due to the visitor income.

I am delighted with the forward looking attitude I have found at the club - we are in the process of appointing an experienced Course Manager to take the course forward and to get the best out of the existing greens staff, and I am getting involved  in marketing efforts to boost both membership and visitor income. The potential for Stay and Play breaks in conjunction with local hotels is immense.

Rest assured, Cavendish will not be participating in any further Groupon offers!

[Mark Pearce]

Duncan,


Maybe a subject for a separate thread but I'm fascinated what persuaded someone who had been such a passionate advocate of Reddish Vale up sticks and move to Cavendish? 

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan,


Maybe a subject for a separate thread but I'm fascinated what persuaded someone who had been such a passionate advocate of Reddish Vale up sticks and move to Cavendish?

Not a subject for a public forum!


Ask me again when I see you... 

[Ryan Coles]

http://www.cotswoldgolfbreaks.com/courses.php


Duncan


Consider something like this. Keep it to a few Clubs, say no more than four. The one my Club is involved in has too many - keeps costs down, but limits and dilutes the financial return.


Don’t know whether you would push it as a Manchester thing or a Peak District thing but there may be a few quid in getting together with a couple of others, a few hotels and doing something similar.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Cheers Ryan,


I've been thinking of something very similar in conjunction with our neighbouring club, Buxton & High Peak, and maybe one other. Buxton makes a very attractive centre for groups of golfers; in a National Park with a wide choice of hotels and plenty of off-course activities and distractions.


We are also ideally located within 90 minutes of maybe 15-20 million people in an area extending from from Leeds to Birmingham and from Liverpool to Nottingham.


I see all golfers among this vast population as potential Cavendish customers.

[jeffwarne]

Duncan congrats


Is Cavendish closer to your home than Reddish Vale?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan congrats


Is Cavendish closer to your home than Reddish Vale?

No - it's 15 miles away as opposed to 4 miles. It takes me 30 minutes through beautiful scenery. RV took me 15 minutes through urban blight!   

[jeffwarne]

Duncan congrats


Is Cavendish closer to your home than Reddish Vale?

No - it's 15 miles away as opposed to 4 miles. It takes me 30 minutes through beautiful scenery. RV took me 15 minutes through urban blight!   

almost an American point of view as far as driving
30 minutes through beautiful scenery part of the pleasure.
If only we did as good job with our "scenery" in our many wide open spaces

[Duncan Cheslett]

My 30 minute journey to Cavendish is a highlight of my golfing experience. I'll never tire of these views;

https://www.facebook.com/duncan.cheslett/videos/10212594536038517/

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()