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Sean_A

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2018, 02:06:59 PM »
A lot more than 200 Sean (more than 100 in Ireland alone) and yes most of those farmland courses used a variety of the USGA recommended method...

I am amazed extra money was spent on these farmland courses...total waste.  I wouldn't mind seeing some info on the matter if you have it.

Tom...I agree with you. It seems sensible to first research how to improve the growing conditions and better maintenance practice  before rebuilding greens. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ryan Farrow

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2018, 03:15:28 PM »
The technology exists to re-build a green to USGA spec and keep every last bit of character. I just spend the past 3 months watching it happen and to say otherwise is just not true.

Mark_Fine

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2018, 05:07:16 PM »
Ryan,
They might look the same but they won't play the same.  It should be absolute last resort to rebuild a good set of push up greens.  I sure hope you are modifying the approaches as well if you are rebuilding the greens. 
Mark

Grant Saunders

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2018, 05:43:01 PM »
I think the term "push up green" is being somewhat misrepresented in this discussion. What people are really referring to is native soil greens. IE greens built out of existing material on site. Even then, there is a high probability that they have been topdressed for many years with imported material.

Without the need for the whole land fit for purpose debate, there are certainly some sites with courses on them that there is no way the native soils would be suitable for building a golf green. In such a situation, imported materials are used so some type of construction method/specification must be employed.

If the USGA spec green was renamed the R and A spec green, they would get way more credit and love on this forum.

It is a wonderful romantic notion that golf courses can all be built by simply rocking up with a team of guys sporting rakes and some grass seed who just massage a course out of the landscape.

Mike_Young

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2018, 06:45:59 PM »
The technology exists to re-build a green to USGA spec and keep every last bit of character. I just spend the past 3 months watching it happen and to say otherwise is just not true.
Ryan,I agree the technology is there to duplicate the contours as they existed before construction etc when replacing a green with USGA or any other method.  But the edges mature differently in many areas.  I know from experience that a clay greens cavity behaves differently from a cavity built in a sandy soil.  No matter haow much care is taken new greens move and the cavity and the fill can move differently.  This is indicative of any green built in an enclosed cavity..IMHO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2018, 07:47:12 PM »
The technology exists to re-build a green to USGA spec and keep every last bit of character. I just spend the past 3 months watching it happen and to say otherwise is just not true.

Agreed. Our were scanned to the 1/10" of an inch and put back exactly how they were.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mark_Fine

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2018, 07:52:05 PM »
Anthony,
Did they touch the approaches expanding out the cavity into that area well short of the green or leave that as is?  And as you will know those new greens will play much differently than the old ones.
Mark

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2018, 09:35:18 PM »

Dating back to my first year in the biz, 1977, we remodeled a lot of greens around Chicago, and most of the old ones had some kind of tinkering with the sub soil.  They added cinders, muck, all kinds of things.  They must have known way back when that greens were special cases and perhaps needed something better than planting bent grass in native clay type soils around Chicago.


The 1968 USGA greens recommendation didn't come out of nowhere as a big surprise.  They looked at all the stuff people had done, tested a lot of methods, and developed (and since modified often) their sand based green with a layer of gravel (apparently with coal heating going out of style, as well as diesels replacing steam on the railroads, cinders were getting harder to come by!)


Not only that, for centuries, grass guys recognized sand was the best growing medium you could have, but when the USGA codifies that, somehow they were idiots?  That, and the fact that they thought granular fertilzers and irrigation had been "perfected" allowed them to focus on a sand based (which holds little water and nutrients) was best, to deal with the biggest factor hurting greens - soil compaction.  And, as far as I can tell, those "best greens that are push ups" are probably at low play private clubs in relatively easy climates.  I admit, there are also many public course greens still using native soils as a base, perhaps topdressed with pure sand up to the USGA recommended foot of sand over several decades.


In my own work, I try to localize my solutions for lowest cost, and easily obtainable materials for future topdressing, etc.  I have cases where native sand drain 12-24" per hour they recommend, and adding peat only slows it down below minimums.  Why not just use the native sand?  And, for that matter, I don't know of too many sandy Florida courses that use USGA, they just shape the native sand, etc.


Short version, claiming the best greens are all push up greens, is a gross over simplification.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2018, 09:47:59 PM »
[quote author=Jeff_Brauer link=topic=66344.msg1583910#msg1583910 date=15365433


Short version, claiming the best greens are all push up greens, is a gross over simplification.

Jeff,Agree that many of the push ups have years of topdressing on them.  BUT I can usually take a good local river sand with whatever organic is in it and bring that to a green site and build a " push up " green and grow good grass.  I'm not saying push ups built with local clay etc. I just don't like bath tubs.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2018, 10:12:42 PM »

Mike,


The other side of that, like with tees sand capped, is sometimes, the water hits the clay layer and starts weeping out the side.  But, I agree, it seems odd to promote good drainage by first building a bathtub.  Seems sort of counter intuitive.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Randy Thompson

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2018, 10:29:00 PM »
 As usual this site seeks out cook book recipes and black & white ingredients. Good luck with that! Anyways, some good points do seem to come out of these discussions! Letīs start out with, Architects covering their ass and recommending USGA specification greens. Partially guilty as charged for the first three hundred or so greens. Even though the last couple hundreds have been further and further away from USGA specīs and the last 36, push up, I would still defend some of the USGA concepts of green construction in certain situations but never the full package.
A big consideration in your final construction methods will depend on what type of grass you will be using and if the environmental conditions are ideal or less than ideal for the selected species. Sandy loam greens in New York with good surface drainage may have a chance in upstate New York but not likely in Georgia. When the fog clears and you start to list what is really important, I suggest you start with Air. A base material consisting of a medium coarse sand with round particle will provide the ideal opportunity for air exchange internally and externally and the particles sizes in the range of the USGA specifications seems to be ideal. Subsurface drainage (herringbone-4-inch corrugated slit plastic drain lines) justification will depend on expected size of rainfalls, native base material and final green contouring. Itīs not a big line item and most instances can be justified and should be implemented. The four-inch gravel layer seems to be nothing but a luxury long term filter. The two- inch coarse sand layer creating the perched water table is where they really lost it and continue to try unsuccessfully justifying something that canīt be justified IMO. This is the bath tub effect that comes with an automatic drain plugs that pops open when your growing media reaches 100% saturation and seals itself once again when less then saturated condition exist. The peat is also unnecessary in my opinion and only gives the green an early head start to the ideal growing medium. A little more fertilizer the first couple of years is all you will need as the sand root zone and micro-organisms fabricates the needed organic material.
Reason why USGA greens fail or are not a guarantee that you pass go everytime and collect 200 dollars.
1.       Overwatering and maintaining the bathtub near the 100 saturation mark.
2.       Topdressing with a finer sand then what sand was used in green construction. Great short- term results for a weekend tournament but your gradually creating a perched water table at the surface similar to what was created at the base of the mix. Your surfaces stay wet and without air.
3.       Poor quality water, high in Ph and high in Carbonates. The carbonates will plug the air spaces between the sand particles like they plug a shower. Bye bye, drainage and bye bye air!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Most push up greens have received favorable modifications through the long term addition of sand or are originally aremade up of a good soil high in sand content. You will not be able to roll them as often as a 100% sand green without detrimental effects. So, million dollars USGA greens are hard to justify and complicated, yes but lets give them credit, they got the sand part right!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 12:15:56 AM by Randy Thompson »

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

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Re: The Best Greens I've Ever Played Were All Pushed Up.
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2018, 08:42:09 AM »

As mentioned above USGA spec greens are not all bad but they need to be properly maintained to work correctly and last. It also depends on location and what the eventual needs of the course is. I'll say that a lot of the USGA spec greens built in Ireland during the boom were not the correct option as although the rainfall there necessitates a free draining soil, there isn't enough to really make a USGA green perform properly - some sort of modified or sand based green would probably have sufficed. In Philly for example, a USGA spec green can make a lot of sense as it can give the turf manager control over the moisture levels most, if not all, the time, whereas with a pushup and/or modified green you are dealing with what the weather gives you. It's always easier to add water than take it away.

USGA spec greens were given a life span of something like 25-30 years when they were first launched but most have not been rebuilt. The thinking was in 25 or so years the organic in the green would be so great that it would clog them up - slowing drainage - but advances in aeration have negated this and, provided they are managed properly they can last just like a push up. As Randy mentioned once they mature for a few years and are maintained properly they are not water or nutrient hogs either. They can provide a more consistent surface and I guess it can be said that that adds insurance that the investment will work.

That's not to say push ups (or more correctly native soil greens) can't be good they certainly can but the same criteria if them needing to maintained properly applies also. They can easily be over watered, over fertilized and they can produce just as much thatch also. I'll also say that a lot of push ups have been modified over the years to provide some extra drainage to make sure they can withstand the stresses on them. The original philosophy building greens back in the day was to have them hold water, hence as Jeff mentioned crap like ash in the bases which blocked drainage and held water in them - this was before reliable irrigation so they needed to hold water to survive periods of dry weather.

The two types will play a little differently also due to the underlying soil type so that might be why someone would prefer one over another.
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

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