Ron Whitten on Mike Davis advice on Erin Hills greens

[Garland Bayley]

From the June 2017 Golf Digest

Ron wrote, "Davis visited on Aug. 10, with then-USGA agronomist Tim Moraghan. They spent 4 1/2 hours walking the entire 18 with us, answering our questions, offering suggestions: keep the greens small; no severe slopes that gobble up hole locations; ..."

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but I would like to see peoples thoughts on this suggestion.

[Terry Lavin]

From the June 2017 Golf Digest

Ron wrote, "Davis visited on Aug. 10, with then-USGA agronomist Tim Moraghan. They spent 4 1/2 hours walking the entire 18 with us, answering our questions, offering suggestions: keep the greens small; no severe slopes that gobble up hole locations; ..."

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but I would like to see peoples thoughts on this suggestion.

Mike has a lot of experience, a lot of knowledge and a lot of opinions regarding agronomic and architectural issues. He also runs the national championship in the USA, so his voice will be heard, whether the purists like it or not.

[Garland Bayley]

I guess a question i have is: Did Hurdzan, Fry, and Whitten take the advice of Davis?

[Cal Seifert]

If only they spent the same amount of effort fixing the equipment issue as they do altering course design to protect par.

[Peter Pallotta]

Maybe the USGA, like the United States itself, should have a series of checks and balances on the powers of the President/Executive Director.  You know, some equivalent to a bicameral elected assembly, or to a Supreme Court, or to state rights. Because like the United States itself, the power and influence of the USGA is felt all over the world, if more subtly and in less overtly economic or political ways. Sure, sometimes you do get a Havemeyer, just like sometimes you get a Lincoln. But you can also get a Harding -- and then a quasi 'house' and 'senate' peopled by term-limited hoi polloi with distinctly differing viewpoints would be useful in neutralizing any potential damage. 

[jeffwarne]

If only they spent the same amount of effort fixing the equipment issue as they do altering course design to protect par.

no money in that for organizers and architects

[Thomas Dai]

From the June 2017 Golf Digest
“....They spent 4 1/2 hours walking the entire 18 with us ..."

Given the comments about the size of the site and the length of the course I guess we should be amazed that these folks managed to walk the entire 18 in 4 1/2 hrs!
Atb

[V_Halyard]

It's their business model and they are unabashedly seeking another Open. They are also one of the few publicly accessible venues in the region where one can get a US Open branded, par-defending, major venue experience. This may be the Upper Midwestern Bethpage Black.
Outside of Kohler/Whistling Straits and potentially a setup-for-battle at Sand Valley/Mammoth Dunes, there are few publicly accessible, US Open style venues in the Upper Midwest, west of Lake Michigan, and in proximity to a theoretical Chicago-Minneapolis Metro corridor. For those unfamiliar with the area, it is a region with roughly 30 Million people that have no problem driving 4-6 hours, or more, for recreation.

Medina, Rich Harvest, Olympia, Hazeltine, Oakland Hills, etc are all private.  Erin is most definitely not a "nice walk" for everyday play, but their public-access, small green, "put all 12 balls in the bag" and slog-it-out-in-the-fescue strategy is probably sound because at this point, you can't take that Rolex Clock away.

[Phil McDade]

If only they spent the same amount of effort fixing the equipment issue as they do altering course design to protect par.

Indeed...


It appears Erin Hills will remain Mr. Davis' personal playpen. Too bad the lapdogs at Erin Hills are allowing the manager of a multi-million-dollar, non-profit, international organization to dictate slopes and sizes of greens at one course. I might suggest he has better things to do, but his track record suggests otherwise.


The course is a far cry from what its original developer wanted it to be, which is too bad for the golfing public.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is there any truth to the rumor that The Dell Hole could be making a return?

[Garland Bayley]

...
The course is a far cry from what its original developer wanted it to be, which is too bad for the golfing public.

It's original developer wanted it to be the longest golf course on the planet according to the article.

What else did the original developer want it to be?

[Garland Bayley]

OK, I google Erin Hills green size, and the course has a fact sheet that says the average size is 6650 square feet, which seems to me that Mike Davis didn't get his way on that. I admit that I don't pay much attention to green size, but 6650 seems fairly large. I googled and found Pebble Beach average is 3580, which means the greens at Erin Hills are almost twice a large.

To me suggesting small greens on a 600 some acre property trying to be the longest course in the world is just a poor match for the place.

[Pete_Pittock]

Garland,
Your cited a July 2017 issue of Golf Digest, which talked about a August 10th walkthrough. What year. That would help with context, like during contruction, grow-in, before or after the Dell 10th got neutered, before the new 4th (3rd?) green.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
Your cited a July 2017 issue of Golf Digest, which talked about a August 10th walkthrough. What year. That would help with context, like during contruction, grow-in, before or after the Dell 10th got neutered, before the new 4th (3rd?) green.

When a routing was staked out and mowed. I sent the mag to recycling, but if my memory serves me right, Davis offered the women's public links,which caused the owner to finally come up with construction money.

[Phil McDade]

...
The course is a far cry from what its original developer wanted it to be, which is too bad for the golfing public.

It's original developer wanted it to be the longest golf course on the planet according to the article.

What else did the original developer want it to be?

A course that could host a U.S. Open and be available for public pay at @ $50 -- sort of a Midwestern Bethpage Black. EHills is.....not that.

[Garland Bayley]

...
The course is a far cry from what its original developer wanted it to be, which is too bad for the golfing public.

It's original developer wanted it to be the longest golf course on the planet according to the article.

What else did the original developer want it to be?

A course that could host a U.S. Open and be available for public pay at @ $50 -- sort of a Midwestern Bethpage Black. EHills is.....not that.

And who's fault is it that it is not that?

[Phil McDade]

I don't think Mike Davis' microscopic attention to detail at EHills has moved it closer to its founder's original vision for the course.

[Garland Bayley]

The Whitten article indicates that the owner went off on his own after getting the public links, but before getting the open, and spent a lot of money on the course without the advice of the architects or of Mike Davis. This is what I have read in the past too. So I have a hard time envisioning what the owner wanted for the course. It seems whatever vision he had may have been ruined by either insecurities about gaining the open, or arrogance about what he could do on his own.

In any case, his vision does not seem to be clear at all.

[Ronald Montesano]

If only they spent the same amount of effort fixing the equipment issue as they do altering course design to protect par.

I don't see how this protects par. Less-rolling greens means flatter surfaces and easier putts, which offers the chance to go low, in my estimation.

[RJ_Daley]

Garland,
Your cited a July 2017 issue of Golf Digest, which talked about a August 10th walkthrough. What year. That would help with context, like during contruction, grow-in, before or after the Dell 10th got neutered, before the new 4th (3rd?) green.

When a routing was staked out and mowed. I sent the mag to recycling, but if my memory serves me right, Davis offered the women's public links,which caused the owner to finally come up with construction money.

I'm sorry how my memory fails, however if you can get the search function to work, we had lengthy threads on EH during conceptual and early construction phase.  Actually, even several threads post-opening. There was a local young man who aspired to go to turf school (and I think he did) and I regrettably forgot his name, but he posted many photos of the property when Mr. Lang was just mowing conceptual fairway corridors in the fields of hay.  Many of Mr. Lang's early goals for the public venue to host a USGA Open were recounted along with his original operational model. 

AS the project got underway, a couple of people who I consider authoritative on GCA- construction and some well versed in GCA who are also high skill players had specific criticisms on routing, green size and design, and plan of grassing relative to original rough lines, number of blind shots, etc, not overall condemnation, however. 

Once it went financially sour trying to meet all the expectations, a financial rescue and how it morphed into a CCFAD model, with the additional mantel of a USGA Am, publinx, and ultimately Open venue... well it just seems to me it became more for belt notchers and high skill players venue.  It is not, IMHO a course you like to go for an architectural exploration of design creativity and pleasurable enjoyment for multiple drop-by and play sort of golf entertainment.  It is a competition course.  It provided that function well, I believe.  It is a fine place for good players to challenge themselves by comparison to how great players have now performed on it.  It is a likely a one and done sort of destination for the average golfer on a golf trek who likes to beat themselves up and will play from tees beyond their ability.  I reckon it is like Whistling Straits in that regard.  But they can then say they played a championship venue.