Ranking your favorite holes at Prairie Dunes

[BHoover]

I enjoyed every hole at PD.

[Joe Zucker]

I certainly did say that and it seems like I was right with more Perry holes being on the top?  For the record, Prairie Dunes is one of the best courses I have ever played (on a buddy up day with John, no less!) and the Press holes are excellent.


My thought in the 9 holer thread was that the Press holes are less great than the Perry holes, so would the course have been better if it stayed 9?  If you only want to play the best possible holes, the answer might be yes. But if the added variety of 9 additional holes outweighs the cost of having slightly worse holes (on average) then it makes sense to have 18. 


Brian Finn said the course should be 18 and I agree with him.  The full 18 holes are wonderful at PD, but I think it begs a larger question of the value of an additional 9 when you already have 9 awesome holes.  Is it worth it if the next 9 is 10% worse? 20%? Obviously no way to quantify this and it is subjective, but that's where my head is at.

[Brian Finn]

I certainly did say that and it seems like I was right with more Perry holes being on the top?  For the record, Prairie Dunes is one of the best courses I have ever played (on a buddy up day with John, no less!) and the Press holes are excellent.

My thought in the 9 holer thread was that the Press holes are less great than the Perry holes, so would the course have been better if it stayed 9?  If you only want to play the best possible holes, the answer might be yes. But if the added variety of 9 additional holes outweighs the cost of having slightly worse holes (on average) then it makes sense to have 18. 

Brian Finn said the course should be 18 and I agree with him.  The full 18 holes are wonderful at PD, but I think it begs a larger question of the value of an additional 9 when you already have 9 awesome holes.  Is it worth it if the next 9 is 10% worse? 20%? Obviously no way to quantify this and it is subjective, but that's where my head is at.

You are talking about two nines, both of which are extremely high quality.  Under such circumstances, the newer nine holes absolutely should have been built.  Not due to the desire for an 18 hole course...due to the fact that you added nine more outstanding holes.

In the other thread, there are countless examples being mentioned where the second nine is of far lower quality and / or does not blend in well with the original nine (e.g. the many nine hole courses by Ross where other architects later added nine more).  Not only is the newer nine at Prairie Dunes of extremely high quality, but it also blends almost flawlessly with the original nine.  As I said on the other thread, PD should not be mentioned in any thread questioning whether a second nine should have been built, for any reason.

[John Kavanaugh]

This is a nice overview of the property. https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/prairiedunes/aerial.htm?next=tour.htm#


I don't believe for a second that 3, 4, and 5 were not part of the original plan to build 18 holes. You can see how they fit against both one and eight. Oddly enough using the yardage of gold tee, gold tee, white tee they form a perfect 3, 4, 5 triangle. You don't create such perfect accidents.


It would have been easier and more efficient to design the original nine all to one side of the clubhouse. Interesting how 10, 17 and 18 looks to be an intentional buffer created guaranteeing that the second 9 could be built when finances warranted.


Prairie Dunes may have opened and played initially with only 9 holes but it was never a 9 hole course.

[Ari Techner]

This is a nice overview of the property. https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/prairiedunes/aerial.htm?next=tour.htm#


I don't believe for a second that 3, 4, and 5 were not part of the original plan to build 18 holes. You can see how they fit against both one and eight. Oddly enough using the yardage of gold tee, gold tee, white tee they form a perfect 3, 4, 5 triangle. You don't create such perfect accidents.


It would have been easier and more efficient to design the original nine all to one side of the clubhouse. Interesting how 10, 17 and 18 looks to be an intentional buffer created guaranteeing that the second 9 could be built when finances warranted.


Prairie Dunes may have opened and played initially with only 9 holes but it was never a 9 hole course.

I agree w this take completely. 

[Joe Zucker]

The visual is very good and I did not know about that theory.  It would make sense that the two nines fit together so well if it was an 18 hole plan all along that was constructed at different times.


It could be a good discussion about what it is that makes the holes at PD fit together so well compared to the courses listed in the other thread, rather than just creating a buzzfeed list of courses.  The quality of the Press holes is obviously better than most second nines, but it's the seamless blend that makes PD such a great 18 holes.  I've never said it shouldn't have been built and I consider myself fortunate to have played it.

[Jason Topp]

Lately I have been thinking of holes on a scale of great, good, average, mediocre and other.  Here is my stab:


Great:  1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14,
Good:  4, 5, 6, 15, 16, 17, 18
Average/mediocre:  None
Could either be great or terrible (I lean towards great) - 12




I can't remember which holes are original and which ones were added.  The only holes with less compelling land are 6, 7 and 15.  You possibly could throw 3 fairway into that mix but the tee shot from behind 2 green is too cool to support that conclusion.

[John Kirk]

Jason,

I'm pretty sure the original nine holes are 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 17, and 18.

[J_ Crisham]

Jason,

I'm pretty sure the original nine holes are 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 17, and 18.

Accurate

[Matt Elliot]

As many have said this is hard because I feel all 18 are great!  I may be biased in saying that!


Here are my favorites and the way I play the course may have something to do with my rankings!  I started by writing it down once then as I thought about it three more times I switched a few around.  This is tough!
1.  8
2.  2
3.  5
4. 13
5.  14
6.  11
7.  17
8.  10
9.  16
10.  6
11. 12
12. 3
13. 1
14. 9
15. 18
16. 15
17. 7
18. 4

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a short history from the Prairie Dunes website.

"Emerson Carey, founder of Carey Salt Company, was an avid golfer and had traveled the world with his family, playing top ranked courses in the early 1900s including Scotland in the 1920s. Carey and his four sons became a staple in the Hutchinson golf community, contributing to the development of several courses in the area. In 1935 the Carey family commissioned architectural genius Perry Maxwell (Southern Hills, Colonial Country Club, redesign of Pine Valley and Augusta National) to design a masterpiece. Thus, the idea of Prairie Dunes was born.Maxwell’s response to the 480 acre canvas for his masterpiece, “There are 118 holes here, and all I have to do is eliminate 100”.Thus, construction began on Prairie Dunes. The course was molded from the Kansas land using 18 horses and mules, Fresno scrapers and wheelbarrows. The only mechanized equipment used were Model T and Model A Fords used to bring the workers to the site. Greens and fairways came to life by teams dragging plows and scoops, while roots of native grass and weeds were removed by hand-one wheelbarrowful at a time. In true Kansas fashion, a tornado swept across the site, forcing men into a bunker for protection. Despite the elements, Prairie Dunes opened the first 9 holes on September 13, 1937. Twenty years later in 1957, The Dunes opened the second 9 holes, designed by Perry Maxwell’s son, Press."

Think about the world for a bit between the years 1937 and 1957. I don't think any of us can question why the building of the second 18 was delayed. Interestingly enough Kansas did not have a single underground missile silo in 1957. In the next few years the government threw real money at the program. Kansas still loves Eisenhower.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have probably told this story before here, but in the second year of my solo career, I laid out a new nine for PD, and consulted on some bunkers and things.  Obviously, the nine was never built.


I remember some members wanted to mix and match the new nine, making 8 and 9 part of the new nine.  I refused, believing it would be impossible to perfectly match the new holes.  Another wanted me to concur with his opinion on the contours of, and his proposed flattening the 12th green.  It was obviously the slop-iest green there, and had few pin positions.  But, it did have history and pedigree.


Someone suggested we call Press in Colorado, as he was still alive back then, to run it by him.  When told they were considering flattening his 12th green, you could hear him over speaker phone counting off the holes.  He then blurted out "I never liked that green!"


That experience has always stuck with me, especially as we discuss tinkering, restoration, design mulligans for one feature, etc.


Back on topic, I can't rank my favorites, other than the green and tree line back in the fw make 12 one of my least favorites.  I was suitably impressed enough by the 10th green to later model a few greens after it to some degree.  And, I do see the design superiority IMHO, in the nine holes Perry laid out to the nine Press laid out.  They are generally just a bit more graceful.