Does GC Arch have a Pete Rose?

[Ian Andrew]

....

[Mike_Young]

I tend to get agitated with your agitation about the biz in general, and ASGCA in particular.    But, you have been lambasting nearly every organization and big name in the biz, and I just don't appoint myself muckraker, nor think I know enough about what goes on to post the crap you do.  I guess you are better connected than I!  I just don't see slime on the apparently constant basis you do.......

Jeff,
You know I don't mean to agitate you.  Sorry about that.  I don't feel I lambast every organization or every big name.  I lambast USGA and ASGCA and sometimes First Tee.  And I feel I can justify that.  I will always lambast ASGCA until they are operated as a professional organization.  That doesn't mean I'm lambasting all of the individuals who make up such organizations.  As for the big names....I like most of the big names in the business....I don't recall lambasting any of them.  Of course I might have brought some RTJ issues to light that were not flattering.   I think what you may be missing about me is that I'm not a whiner.  I just happen to put these things out there and I know the rules we all play by.  We both will just keep doing our thing.  One has to try to level the playing field the best they can. 

In another thread you mention:  "
"Even in Mike's "you scratch my back and I scratch yours" scenario, yes, certain architects and builders do form a relationship because each gets what they need from the other to be successful.  Sure, when given a chance, they may recommend each other based on positive results. But, not an uncontracted penny changes hands.  "     Think about that one before you place a bet

Ian,
My choice of words was not good with the "back scratch" thing.  And I was using contractor/architect as one example.  I know of several big names who will specify only two or three builders who can do their work.  That's a good situation to be in if you are a builder and naturally those builders will push the guys who send them work.   

I do agree with you that the "golfer" does push much of business as well as developers and industry people.  And I don't know the proper words to use other than " back scratch" for much of what goes on.  But let's say Toro knows a specific architect specifies nothing but their product.  They will definitely recommend him over someone who will push Rainbird whether he is better or not.  And I have no problem with that.  You just got to know it going in.   Myself, if I don't feel I have it locked before the dog and pony show starts then I usually don't waste my time. 

And as for :"When did hitting for average become dismissed as a high level skill ..."  I always considered that a high level skill.  Just ask Honda, McDonalds or Ryland Homes.  There can be a lot of quality in average.  JMO

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,


Things must really be tough in Georgia!


You seem to think slime hides in the corners, but its such a small industry, I don't think it can.  As one example, while working in Asia many years ago under the Larry Nelson banner, Larry, not really familiar with the construction industry, was told it was common for the architect to get more fee by assigning a field guy to work for the contractor to coordinate.  It immediately sounded like a kick back scheme to me, but I put in a few requisite calls to a few contractors working in Asia.


I had more than one industry person come up to me over the years remembering the rumor that I was getting money from the contractor.  I was surprised how much a non-deal that was merely discussed for a short time was so well known.  Luckily, I don't have any real examples of being in any shady deals.  They always seem to be found out, somehow, some time.


Which leads me to my less cynical than your view of the industry/profession.  You are entitled to your own, based on your personal experiences.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,


Things must really be tough in Georgia!


You seem to think slime hides in the corners, but its such a small industry, I don't think it can.  As one example, while working in Asia many years ago under the Larry Nelson banner, Larry, not really familiar with the construction industry, was told it was common for the architect to get more fee by assigning a field guy to work for the contractor to coordinate.  It immediately sounded like a kick back scheme to me, but I put in a few requisite calls to a few contractors working in Asia.


I had more than one industry person come up to me over the years remembering the rumor that I was getting money from the contractor.  I was surprised how much a non-deal that was merely discussed for a short time was so well known.  Luckily, I don't have any real examples of being in any shady deals.  They always seem to be found out, somehow, some time.


Which leads me to my less cynical than your view of the industry/profession.  You are entitled to your own, based on your personal experiences.

Jeff,
I remember when we first met a few years back and you were telling me you had heard I got "kickbacks" from Toro etc.  I thought that was interesting that some redneck dude in Ga was getting this treatment and all the big boys weren't.   As you know, plenty of things are insinuated that never happened in this business...I definitely know it.   And having worked on the other side of the fence I may be more cynical just from knowing how the industry works there.  I know of at least two archies who got 5% from a fertigation person if they would use his product in their courses.  He had a good product and I used it.  Early on I had phrase put in my contracts whereby any such discounts would be passed directly to the owner by the vendor.  But don't try to make me out as a bad guy for such cynicism.  Don't you think it is fair for my client to get  a better deal on a Toro product than an ASGCA member since they spend significant money on the organization and entertainment and endorsing.  I do and I ask for such.    Here is a good simple one for ya....The PGA retirement PLan...a golf professional buys 100,000 from say Titleist for the shop at his club.  Club owns the shop.  At the end of the year it is possible no profit was made but he gets about 8% in his retirement account.  Is that a kickback?  Let's say there is a supt who is really into having all the ribbons on his blazer etc at the annual conference.  A company makes him their spokesperson and puts them in their ads knowing the guy will buy their product.   Is that a kickback?   Sure all of the above is kickbacks but they are done in an "acceptable" manner.  I'm just calling them out.  I know they are there and I deal with it.  I'm not even calling the people involved bad people because that is the way business works.  I don't call it slime. I just want to know what I'm up against;  that's all.

And back to Pete Rose..he might be a great guy...his biggest mistake vs. many others in the profession.  HE GOT CAUGHT....
I go to the Coaches vs. Cancer tourney each year and most of the top 20 BB coaches are there.  To a coach they will tell you, there are the caught and the uncaught.  Their profession is where without the right PR one can become a "bad guy" over nite and as one stated " in reality that are all swimming in the same cesspool"    I think that is true of a lot of businesses....

[SL_Solow]

Mike,  The key ethical issue is disclosure.  If the pro or super discloses his arrangement to the club and the club has no objection, then all is above board.  Only if the professional has a conflict of interest that is undisclosed should there be a problem.  As for Rose, baseball was rife with gamblers fixing games in the early days culminating in the 1919 World Series.  Have you ever been in an MLB clubhouse?  A large sign announces the rules against gambling.  Rose knew and ignored it just as he ignored many societal rules.  The rules apply to the great players as well as the mediocre.  The consequences were well known.  Granted, there are some who have avoided getting caught but that doesn't change the fact that Rose chose to break the rules.  Too bad that he tarnished his accomplishments

















w

[Mike_Young]

Mike,  The key ethical issue is disclosure.  If the pro or super discloses his arrangement to the club and the club has no objection, then all is above board.  Only if the professional has a conflict of interest that is undisclosed should there be a problem.  As for Rose, baseball was rife with gamblers fixing games in the early days culminating in the 1919 World Series.  Have you ever been in an MLB clubhouse?  A large sign announces the rules against gambling.  Rose knew and ignored it just as he ignored many societal rules.  The rules apply to the great players as well as the mediocre.  The consequences were well known.  Granted, there are some who have avoided getting caught but that doesn't change the fact that Rose chose to break the rules.  Too bad that he tarnished his accomplishments


Agree....

















w

[BCowan]

Mike,  The key ethical issue is disclosure.  If the pro or super discloses his arrangement to the club and the club has no objection, then all is above board.  Only if the professional has a conflict of interest that is undisclosed should there be a problem.  As for Rose, baseball was rife with gamblers fixing games in the early days culminating in the 1919 World Series.  Have you ever been in an MLB clubhouse?  A large sign announces the rules against gambling.  Rose knew and ignored it just as he ignored many societal rules.  The rules apply to the great players as well as the mediocre.  The consequences were well known.  Granted, there are some who have avoided getting caught but that doesn't change the fact that Rose chose to break the rules.  Too bad that he tarnished his accomplishments


Agree....


w

By today's standards Rose is a choir boy.  He just needed to play state sponsored gambling known as the lottery, a tax on the poor.  Steroids are illegal too and only a 50 game suspension is given I recall. Giambi was considered brave for admitting he took roids


PS,


Andy this maybe the best opening thread for a newbie, welcome aboard. 

[Eric Smith]

Steeeeeeeerrriiiiiiike! 


I'm not a real umpire but I think Andy's posted here for many years.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,


If you recall the discussion correctly, I got that offer, too.  Some underling at Toro concocted it, and when presented to a few architects, ASGCA got back to them and they stopped it pronto.  If the big boys didn't get the offer, it was because it was pulled so quickly by a reputable company that made a big mistake.  We all do occasionally.


And so, to supposedly prove your point that gca's are unethical, you give stories about three corporations, the PGA and a mythical superintendent as examples?  As Trump might say, Fake News!  Then you insinuate that every baseball player ever gambled on games....but Rose was the dumbest one because he got caught?  It appears you have an agenda to me, old friend.


I agree Andy brought up a potentially sensitive and definitely provocative thread.  And, while defending the profession, it appears that I was the only one who tried to Google actual facts to ferret out instances of malfeasance among architects, assuming that was the point of the thread.  If it was "A muni guy like Brauer will never design a TPC because he was tagged as such" then I was mistaken in Andy's intent.  And, BTW, also a good topic, although in both, I doubt any definitive conclusions can be made.


For the record, I once had a contract to design a TPC, which never came to fruition, and Colbert Hills started as a TPC, but they gave up on it, believing the costs of complying with TPC guidelines exceeded the potential name value in their case.  And yes, both came because I knew Jim, and he was on the TPC committee of some kind, so I guess by your standards, I was unethical.  IMHO, I did a few nice courses for Jim, he recommended me and the rest was sort of history.


I doubt we will ever change anyone's mind, but do present two clear visions of the profession.  Mine is positive but recognizes there have been and always will be a miniscule number of mistakes.  Yours seems to think every architect and organization ought to be investigated by Congress for its ethics. Or, just taken out back and shot.......


I suspect every readers mindset will determine their position, and those who see conspiracy behind every tree (hey, around here, every golf course tree is a conspiracy!) but I am confident in my case.

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
You are not reading me correctly at all.  I'll try one more time.  I never said any architect was unethical..I made reference to things that go on with architects, golf pros, builders and others in the industry and other industries.  I don't care because as a realist I know all of that goes on and I don't consider it an ethics issue.  It's others that take those things and make them ethics issues when it is convenient.  Reread what I said.  I even said I wasn't calling those people bad people.  Hell, I have a vendor who takes us to the Ryder Cup every other year and I go.  I get a good deal on his product and don't pay excess but you can bet his taking me to the Ryder Cup is an influence.  So, it's not me that brings up ethics...it's me that says these types of things are often considered ethical issues when convenient.
So here it is:
- I have a very positive perception of the industry.  I don't consider myself any more ethical or any less ethical than you or anyone else out there.  You can't stay in business if there is an issue there.
- I have not called anything a conspiracy as you mention. I'm a realist when it comes to how things go down and accept how the game is played.
-I haven't called anyone unethical
-I have brought up many things that go on in the industry that are often brought up as unethical when convenient but they are just the way business is done. 
-ASGCA is a fraternal club and has no exclusive on superior ethics in the business.

As for Pete Rose...I never insinuated every player gambled on games...and I never said he was dumb for getting caught.  I said his mistake was getting caught.  Let's just equate to him being the guy who marked his ball 1/8th of an inch to the right....all ams do it accidentally and it happens with many pros but not all get caught....right?

I'm done....good night

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,


If that's the case (it doesn't really bother you, it just is what it is....) why bring it up constantly here?



You and I have survived in the golf biz for about 40 years each.  We both probably have more than the average numbers of courses designed, etc.  Whatever we faced, we must have done it well enough, no?

Around here, the prevailing perception is life isn't fair, so why should golf be fair?  Same goes for the golf industry.  And, of course, define "Fair" as in someone other than yourself paying their "fair share" of taxes, etc.  No such animal.


As for you clients having some right to get a better deal out of Toro or Rainbird because they support the ASGCA?  LOL.


It reminds me of when my Dallas Stars made the Stanley Cup Finals two years in a row.  Of course, bandwagon fans wanted to see actual Stanley Cup Final games, and one went so far as to claim that it was "unfair" that season ticket holders got to keep their seats.  They thought it was more fair to auction them off to the general public so they could see the Stars, too.  Which is fair?  Someone who hasn't watched until they won getting my seat, or me keeping it, after paying several thousand dollars a year for (now) 26 years of Stars hockey?


Ditto frequent flyer programs.  Every so often, someone in the traveling public will "call out" an airline for favoring its best customers. 


My point is, I presume the big mfgs reward their biggest buyers first and foremost, like any biz.  Some think its unfair to get wholesale pricing, that big water or electric users get lower rates than small ones, etc. etc. etc. (in these times, even I see some value in the last argument)


I can't speak for others, but your posts do sound like complaining to me. Yes, you say you are merely "calling out" others.  I guess I get tired of muckraking!  It doesn't strike me as noble as it does some others, because its the easiest thing in the world to do.


But, I agree with you this is another one of our personal arguments that ought to end now.....but I still would have been interested to hear if any gca's from decades past got into any sort of legal/ethical/tax/or even moral trouble (a la FLW and his multiple wives, etc.)  A big sorry to Andy for derailing his thread......that doesn't seem fair to him....whoops!

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
Have a good day...

[BCowan]

I think Jeff and Mike should join us for summerball in a few weeks.  They can be on opposing teams.   

[Mike_Young]

I think Jeff and Mike should join us for summerball in a few weeks.  They can be on opposing teams.   

Ben,

Jeff and I aren't fighting...we are just arguing..and we are done with it for now...

What the hell is summerball?

[AStaples]

**Insert GIF of tall slender man (me) tip toeing in reverse, softly, out a door that closes quietly...**


This post, I guess, was part naivete, and part provocative. I do think the discussion is a good one.  But, from my perspective it's not really about what Mike and Jeff are speaking of.  I just think there are guys in our business that should get chances at things they don't based on established rules from larger entities that have more say than we may or may not know.  My naive mind thinks it's not always about kick backs or unscrupulous deals.  It just is was it is.  And, as time moves along, mind sets change, people change, and the general thought of the day brings with it a different end result.  We do our best to direct that narrative, and sometimes that narrative comes at some cost.  You just hope the narrative is your own, and the timing of that narrative is right.


Strike one.  Next subject post.






 


 

[Tim Martin]

Over a long period of time Pete Rose delivered early and often on the baseball field. Over a long period of time Donald Ross delivered early and often designing fun, playable and architecturally significant golf courses. Someone lamented that Ross didn't deliver as many iconic courses as others but nobody has come close to producing such a collection of "good" golf courses. Both excelled at delivering a consistent and compelling product in their respective field of endeavor. I stayed away from the "banned" part of the original post.

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,


That was me saying Dr. Mack hit far more home runs than Ross ever dreamed of.  But as it concerns Pete Rose, he was more than just a steadie eddie, he was clearly exceptional at hitting and I don't think his hits record will ever be broken...never


Ross is far more comparable to Cal Ripken, who was an iron-man type who did a lot of things well but was never a killer in any category...unlike Pete.


Just sayin' 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Back on the scandal side, Mac was or would have been shunned at his original home club of Alwoody, due to him divorcing his first wife in Reno, not recognized back in GBI as legit, and thus making him a bigamist in their eyes.