Chambers Bay to change greens to Poa annua

[Emile Bonfiglio]

Is this a good move, bad move or an inevitable move for Chambers Bay?   I don't see this course ever getting back into the rotation regardless of what they do. I enjoy the course, but as a spectator it was beyond miserable. FWIW I won't play there either because I enjoyed the unique experience of fescue greens, I play Poa weekly as it is right now.


http://www.golfdigest.com/story/chambers-bay-to-change-greens-from-fine-fescue-to-poa-annua

[Tom_Doak]

That's like saying you fired a guy, after he walked out on you.

[BCowan]

Weaning folks off Fescue is a much harder task then I thought

[Greg Chambers]

If you talk to any super in the PNW...they'll tell you it's inevitable that poa will take over.  Not really much of a story here, just nature taking its course.  Even if the greens were planted bent, the encroachment still would have eventually occurred...maybe less noticeably.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

Weaning folks off Fescue is a much harder task then I thought

For me, its a 3 hour drive to Chambers or a 3.5 hours to Bandon. I'll take Old Mac with Fescue over Chambers with Poa Annua for the putting experience alone because it is unique.

[Anthony_Nysse]

If you talk to any super in the PNW...they'll tell you it's inevitable that poa will take over.  Not really much of a story here, just nature taking its course.  Even if the greens were planted bent, the encroachment still would have eventually occurred...maybe less noticeably.

Observing from afar with agronomic knowledge, this has been and continues to be such a sensitive subject with the PNW Supts and those that worked at the event. Maybe it's because egos were hurt or Superintendents are prideful and defend each other quickly, but this seems like such a simple decision to me, where as the decision to plant fescues was the complete opposite. Whether some believe it or not, the greens were not up to US Open standards and expectations. Reading recent reviews, there still seems to be a struggle. This has to be a good decision for CB going forward, no?

[Jerry Kluger]

I was at a course in Arizona where the greens superintendent told me that they had Poa greens - but it was a different strain that provides a very smooth surface - anyone familiar with this?

[Anthony_Nysse]

I was at a course in Arizona where the greens superintendent told me that they had Poa greens - but it was a different strain that provides a very smooth surface - anyone familiar with this?

Its annual poa that they're trying to cultivate. It produces seedheads, unlike Oakmont.

[Bill Raffo]

If you talk to any super in the PNW...they'll tell you it's inevitable that poa will take over.  Not really much of a story here, just nature taking its course.  Even if the greens were planted bent, the encroachment still would have eventually occurred...maybe less noticeably.

Exactly. This is more a story of why they tried fescue to begin with. What a headache that turned out to be and now, finally, capitulation.

Observing from afar with agronomic knowledge, this has been and continues to be such a sensitive subject with the PNW Supts and those that worked at the event. Maybe it's because egos were hurt or Superintendents are prideful and defend each other quickly, but this seems like such a simple decision to me, where as the decision to plant fescues was the complete opposite. Whether some believe it or not, the greens were not up to US Open standards and expectations. Reading recent reviews, there still seems to be a struggle. This has to be a good decision for CB going forward, no?

[David Wuthrich]

I am fine with them going to Poa.  Think that it is a better alternative than the fescue, especially after seeing what happened at the Open.  But I play on Bermuda here in Houston, so what do I know!! 

[John Kirk]

Its annual poa that they're trying to cultivate. It produces seedheads, unlike Oakmont.

My understanding is that Poa annua evolves and adapts to the low mowing environment of a golf green, into a grass surface with an increasing percentage of perennial plants with fewer seedheads.  The reason Oakmont's greens are so tightly packed and seed free is a matter of time evolving into this surface.  There's a USGA paper on this:

http://usgatero.msu.edu/v03/n09.pdf

Poa transition at Chambers Bay, as well as Old Macdonald, is inevitable.  Keeping Poa annua from dominating greens has been successful zero times west of the Cascades in the Pacific Northwest.  It will take time.  The first few years the greens will have lots of flowers and be soft and bumpy, but they will get better.  Within a decade they will be pretty good, in 20 years they will be very good.

Our greens at Pumpkin Ridge have gone through a full transition (about 27 years old), and are better and faster than they ever were as delicate PennCross bentgrass greens fighting nature.  The current superintendent appears to use a seedhead suppressor, and perhaps a growth regulator, but the greens are incredibly tight knit and smooth.  Green speeds are regularly 10.5 - 11 feet, and can be rolled as needed for faster speeds if desired.  Our course has pretty gentle slopes on the greens, and faster greens are required to make the short-siding penalty significant.

With that said, I like to play Old Macdonald when I visit Bandon, because I love those fescue greens, and know it's just a metter of time before they succumb to nature.

[Adrian_Stiff]

What is/was the height of cut for Chambers Bay? Old Mac?


At 6mm with every other day mowing you can retain chewings fescue and if kept at 7mm its even better as soon as you go inside 6mm your days are numbered. The best management of it is at a complete opposite to Bent.


Forget double digit stimps though.

[John Kirk]

Hi Adrian,

I don't know how high they cut the grass now, but I suspect that when they opened the course, they tried to keep the grass mowed higher to protect the fescue, but customers complained about very slow green speeds.  My understanding is that the fescue greens were rarely in good shape, and were a chronic problem.  Bandon's weather is significantly different than Chambers Bay, cooler and wetter, with less variations in temperature.

I believe Eric Johnson is now the superintendent.  He is an expert in these matters, and I'm certain he and course director Matt Allen are making the right decision.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Its annual poa that they're trying to cultivate. It produces seedheads, unlike Oakmont.

My understanding is that Poa annua evolves and adapts to the low mowing environment of a golf green, into a grass surface with an increasing percentage of perennial plants with fewer seedheads.  The reason Oakmont's greens are so tightly packed and seed free is a matter of time evolving into this surface.  There's a USGA paper on this:

http://usgatero.msu.edu/v03/n09.pdf

Oakmont's poa is extremely unique and has not been able to be duplicated anywhere else. Even courses that are similar age (or even the old East course) at OCC do not have perennial poa therefore deal with seedheads every spring.


http://newsinteractive.post-gazette.com/usopen2016/2016/06/12/tough-turf/