[paul cowley]

...I agree Tom and Kalen...fresh isn't designed by commitee....and I say that as I sit here marinating in Mexico, hoping for something new. But one good thing is that in the past few years I have been able to do a DRoss/#2PH continuous renovation of our course here...4.5 holes are new with 1.5 to go, and yes, it's getting better all the time!

[JWL]

Paul
Can a slow learner get a insightful tour on one of my future visits down there?
Cheers
JWL

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom Doak,


I used your line on a site visit today....."What does this little piece of ground want to be?"


In this case, it was a hard to drain area, and my self answer was "Wetlands!"  So, instead of trying to drain a lower area that has seepage coming in, we are creating wetlands, which is probably good for mitigation, since recent storms silted over a few we were trying to protect.....


Yeah, OT, especially since the holes it was nearest to were both par 5 holes, not short par 4's.


But, architects always need a ready supply of pithy one liners, and you were able to supply me one, so thanks!

[paul cowley]

Paul
Can a slow learner get a insightful tour on one of my future visits down there?
Cheers
JWL

Absolutely Amigo....it would be my pleasure!

[PCCraig]

And on short fives (510 or less), do you feel the need to pinch the landed area for the big hitter? One hole that came up was #16 at White Bear Yacht Club. It is 475 with hazard left and tall fescue right pinching the landing area. Is that good architecture, or does a hole like that need to change to a long par 4 and eliminate the fescue on the right so there is a place to bail out? I can certainly see that point of view as no one likes losing balls or taking an excessively long time looking for them. What is strategy for building a short five?

I can see how the 16th tee shot at White Bear would be considered awkward for a first time player who might automatically reach for a driver on a short 475 yard par 5.


I'm sure 30 years ago it was probably a pretty straightforward shortish par-5 where almost everyone hit a driver off the tee. Now, most modern longer hitters have to try to squeeze a driver into a pretty tight, and very tilted, landing area. After a few plays I figured it is always a better play to hit 3-wood off the tee. Frankly, the most important shot is the 2nd as it is most important to set up your third shot into the green. Like many of the greens at WBYC, it's not just about hitting the green but setting up the best angle of attack on the 3rd shot. The pin location dictates how to attack, and it's not always ideal to be pin high, either on or just off the green especially on the 16th which has severe drop offs/false fronts in different spots around the green.


Frankly, I think the hole would be boring as a ~400 par 4 where better players hit driver-8 iron where they can fly it directly to pin positions. If anything, the forced layup off the tee makes the rest of the hole more strategic and interesting, in my opinion. 

[Jim Franklin]

And on short fives (510 or less), do you feel the need to pinch the landed area for the big hitter? One hole that came up was #16 at White Bear Yacht Club. It is 475 with hazard left and tall fescue right pinching the landing area. Is that good architecture, or does a hole like that need to change to a long par 4 and eliminate the fescue on the right so there is a place to bail out? I can certainly see that point of view as no one likes losing balls or taking an excessively long time looking for them. What is strategy for building a short five?

I can see how the 16th tee shot at White Bear would be considered awkward for a first time player who might automatically reach for a driver on a short 475 yard par 5.


I'm sure 30 years ago it was probably a pretty straightforward shortish par-5 where almost everyone hit a driver off the tee. Now, most modern longer hitters have to try to squeeze a driver into a pretty tight, and very tilted, landing area. After a few plays I figured it is always a better play to hit 3-wood off the tee. Frankly, the most important shot is the 2nd as it is most important to set up your third shot into the green. Like many of the greens at WBYC, it's not just about hitting the green but setting up the best angle of attack on the 3rd shot. The pin location dictates how to attack, and it's not always ideal to be pin high, either on or just off the green especially on the 16th which has severe drop offs/false fronts in different spots around the green.


Frankly, I think the hole would be boring as a ~400 par 4 where better players hit driver-8 iron where they can fly it directly to pin positions. If anything, the forced layup off the tee makes the rest of the hole more strategic and interesting, in my opinion.

I agree that it would be a boring par 4. And next time around, laying up short would make more sense.

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