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Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: "And second it isn't Oakmont".
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2017, 11:26:17 AM »
     Oakmont on Sunday in 1973 did not scare the pros...it was soft because of the rain and as I recall sprinkler watering as the rain was unexpected (75% sure about the sprinkler stuff).And nothing JM says that makes his records look better surprises me...JM is all about JM.

Amazing how over time Miller's round becomes greater!  One historical fact that is being forgotten---the sprinkler system went haywire and the sprinklers ran all night, making the greens as soft as if a major storm had passed through!

Those are myths…
http://www.foxsports.com/golf/story/16-things-to-know-about-johnny-miller-s-underrated-yes-underrated-63-at-oakmont-061516
http://alazarus.com/johnny-miller-63-at-oakmont-the-1973-us-open/

The rain AND the sprinkler malfunction were days earlier.


Miller was something like 10.8 below the scoring average, JT only about 9. Depth of field closes that gap IMO a little, but I still give the edge to Johnny for the tougher test and the fact that he won with it on Sunday.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 11:30:15 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Terry Lavin

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Re: "And second it isn't Oakmont".
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2017, 11:42:45 AM »
Winning it on Sunday and coming from behind while really trouncing the field certainly makes it a more memorable and more impressive feat.  To me a 63 is a 63, regardless of whether a course is a par 70, 71or 72.  The fact that some of the par 4's at Erin Hills were at or near 500 yards and that the final hole on the final day was 661 yards yet was still among the easiest (maybe even the easiest) suggests that there's virtually no way to compare the difficulty of a course like Oakmont in 1973 versus a modern course like Erin Hills.  You'd have to include the vagaries of equipment (persimmon vs. metal, shaft technology, the modern golf ball vs. balata etc.), the physical conditioning of today's golfers and the advances in golf instruction, among many other considerations.

Both rounds were impressive.  Johnny Miller for a few years knocked down flagsticks like nobody in his era.  His final round to win the Open at Oakmont will be recognized forever as the greatest finishing round for the win of all time.  Until somebody beats that record.  But if they do, Miller will find some reason to argue that his was better.  That's my main beef here, that Miller took time to beat up the course before the tournament started, then tried to belittle Justin Thomas's terrific third round, which included that amazing three-wood finish.  That's as close to the final hole Ben Hogan one-iron at Merion that we've seen on a modern golf course in a major in my memory.

Miller shouldn't have dissed it.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JJShanley

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Re: "And second it isn't Oakmont".
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2017, 11:59:40 AM »
Winning it on Sunday and coming from behind while really trouncing the field certainly makes it a more memorable and more impressive feat.  To me a 63 is a 63, regardless of whether a course is a par 70, 71or 72.  The fact that some of the par 4's at Erin Hills were at or near 500 yards and that the final hole on the final day was 661 yards yet was still among the easiest (maybe even the easiest) suggests that there's virtually no way to compare the difficulty of a course like Oakmont in 1973 versus a modern course like Erin Hills.  You'd have to include the vagaries of equipment (persimmon vs. metal, shaft technology, the modern golf ball vs. balata etc.), the physical conditioning of today's golfers and the advances in golf instruction, among many other considerations.

Both rounds were impressive.  Johnny Miller for a few years knocked down flagsticks like nobody in his era.  His final round to win the Open at Oakmont will be recognized forever as the greatest finishing round for the win of all time.  Until somebody beats that record.  But if they do, Miller will find some reason to argue that his was better.  That's my main beef here, that Miller took time to beat up the course before the tournament started, then tried to belittle Justin Thomas's terrific third round, which included that amazing three-wood finish.  That's as close to the final hole Ben Hogan one-iron at Merion that we've seen on a modern golf course in a major in my memory.

Miller shouldn't have dissed it.


The correct response would have looked something like: "As the first player to shoot 63 in a major, I welcome Justin to our exclusive group.  The game has certainly changed since 1973, but Justin's round will live long in the memory."


Perhaps, as the "Father of 63" he should write congratulatory notes to anyone who matches it, as AP did for the winners of each major.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: "And second it isn't Oakmont".
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2017, 12:01:46 PM »
Amazing how over time Miller's round becomes greater!  One historical fact that is being forgotten---the sprinkler system went haywire and the sprinklers ran all night, making the greens as soft as if a major storm had passed through!

The sprinklers ran on Friday morning, and scores were indeed low on Friday.  By Saturday, scores were back to normal, and on Sunday exactly FOUR players were below 70.  That Wadkins played such a great round is a tribute to Wadkins, and in no way diminishes Miller's round.  At Erin Hills on Saturday, I think 18 players shot rounds in the 60's.

I would have been shocked if Miller hadn't taken a cheap shot at Thomas' round, though even by Miller's standards it was a pretty graceless comment.

That said, if you put aside Miller being Miller, there is no comparison in the two rounds.  Miller did it on Sunday at Oakmont to win the US Open in one of the epic comebacks in all of sports history.  Thomas did it on Saturday at Erin Hills; that's a world of difference right there.

As to the courses, think of it this way.  If you could somehow factor out distance, and just be hitting shots into the fairways and onto the greens at Erin Hills vs. into the fairways and onto the greens of Oakmont, where would YOU have the better score?  I don't think that is a very hard question.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

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Re: "And second it isn't Oakmont".
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2017, 12:06:35 PM »
I'm struggling to buy into the "number of players who broke par" part of the discussion. It seems to me that the field today is so much deeper, and the modern golfer is so much more trained. Whether the Oakmont of yesterday was harder than Erin Hills today is also tough with the difference in equipment and changes in golf course conditioning.

Joe,
I agree with you about the depth of field today vs. then, 100%.  But in THIS case, cut the number of guys under 70 on Saturday in half, and it's still more than twice as many as on Sunday in 1973.  Cut the number from Saturday by two-thirds, and it's still half again bigger than the number in 1973.

The fields today aren't THAT much deeper.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jim Nugent

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Re: "And second it isn't Oakmont".
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2017, 01:30:18 PM »

As to the courses, think of it this way.  If you could somehow factor out distance, and just be hitting shots into the fairways and onto the greens at Erin Hills vs. into the fairways and onto the greens of Oakmont, where would YOU have the better score?  I don't think that is a very hard question.

The year Angel won at Oakmont, in the 3rd round Tiger hit 17 greens and every fairway but one.  He shot 69.  One under.  The greens stymied one of the game's best putters, and turned what would be a spectacular round anyplace else into a good-not-great round.

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