[David_Madison]

At the risk of committing blasphemy, I think that Pine Needles, and perhaps Mid Pines, are better than PH2. I confess that I played PH2 only once and it was before the restoration whereas I have played PN and MP several times. But even with that caveat, the elevation changes, judicious use of water hazards, and variety of holes at both PN and MP are to me superior.  No, the green complexes are not as complex (redundancy intended), but both PN and MP provide strategic options and challenges that make up for the difference.

Ira,


Utter blasphemy.  The greens at #2 are head and shoulders above anything I've ever set foot on.  I've never been so scared to hit an 8 iron into a green.  I love Pine Needles, not as big of a Mid-pines fan, but those greens alone are worth the price of admission.

Joe - I'm not so sure Ira's comment is utter blasphemy. #2's greens complexes are fabulous, and hiting into them can be terrifying. Where Mid-Pines has it over #2's greens is that they have just as much of the table-top thing going with the run-off surrounds, but MP's greens complexes are far more tilted, and approach shots run laterally into trouble in a manner that just doesn't happen at #2. The targets at MP are also smaller and much of the bunkering is deeper and more severe. Yard-for-yard, MP is a more difficult course than #2.

[Joe Sponcia]

At the risk of committing blasphemy, I think that Pine Needles, and perhaps Mid Pines, are better than PH2. I confess that I played PH2 only once and it was before the restoration whereas I have played PN and MP several times. But even with that caveat, the elevation changes, judicious use of water hazards, and variety of holes at both PN and MP are to me superior.  No, the green complexes are not as complex (redundancy intended), but both PN and MP provide strategic options and challenges that make up for the difference.

Ira,


Utter blasphemy.  The greens at #2 are head and shoulders above anything I've ever set foot on.  I've never been so scared to hit an 8 iron into a green.  I love Pine Needles, not as big of a Mid-pines fan, but those greens alone are worth the price of admission.

Joe - I'm not so sure Ira's comment is utter blasphemy. #2's greens complexes are fabulous, and hiting into them can be terrifying. Where Mid-Pines has it over #2's greens is that they have just as much of the table-top thing going with the run-off surrounds, but MP's greens complexes are far more tilted, and approach shots run laterally into trouble in a manner that just doesn't happen at #2. The targets at MP are also smaller and much of the bunkering is deeper and more severe. Yard-for-yard, MP is a more difficult course than #2.

David,


For what it's worth, my group of 8 last summer liked Dormie and Pine Needles better than Mid-Pines.  I've only played Mid-Pines the one time, so I don't want to rush to judgement too fast...however, something about it stumped me too?  It felt crammed into the land.  I felt like I had more room to breath at Southern Pines.  I'll play it again, but didn't feel as intimidated on MP as #2.  I'm a 2 btw.

[BCowan]

I'm guessing that #2's greens are cut faster then MP's so that could have a lot to do with it.  MP is 3-5 shots tougher then PN and it's 300 or so yards shorter from the tips.  I don't judge Architecture merit by resistance to scoring and I love torture chambers  .   It seems that so many are impressed with Scale, if the course has huge scale then it vaults its status.  I was told how much scale Oakland Hills had prior to my play and I was underwhelmed. PN has the scale and MP has an awesome intimate experience, though over treed as is #2 (JN you are wrong, sorry) it is not cramped at all.  The over treedness of MP also reduces it's scale IMO.  I could definitely see the masses liking Dormie the best, my 30 handicap father in law loves it.  It is a beautiful piece of land and has some great holes.   

[David_Madison]

Joe - MP is very compact, alot of golf course on 80 or so acres. But I don't feel it's crammed. I can't think of a single hole that is diminished because it runs into another hole or has another alongside it. One neat thing about the layout is that there are certain spots on the course where you can see pieces of up to eleven holes, yet as Ben says, it has lots of trees. That's pretty unique, to say the least. The routing is incredibly effficient for sure.


It's funny - I'm about a one or two with modern equipment and maybe a five or six with my hickories (it's an incredibly fun hickory course) and the course is very difficult for its length. More often than not I don't playy to my handicap out there because it requires a level of precision that I don't have. But every so often I go birdie-crazy out there, more often than not in the process of a wild up and down round. That just doesn't happen at #2, which to me is more of a fun grind.


And Ben is right about the green speeds. If MP's were ever cut anywhere north of 9.5 or 10, the place would be terrifying. You could set up every hole at 100 yards and just with some interesting cupping make it so that even players like you or me would have a tough time making 3's.

[Sean_A]

To be honest, I don't think there is much between #2, Dormie, Mid-Pines Old Town and Roaring Gap.  I could easily see any of these being touted as the best course in NC...my pick is Old Town pipping Dormie & #2.  What surprises me is the inclusion of Pine Needles in that group. I recall being terribly disappointed in the then recent redo of the course.  Its not surprising to me that the resort has gone back to the drawing board for PN.  I would like to see the course, but based on my experience, Tobacco Road is the trailer course behind the five listed above. I also think Governors Club is sneaky good....right on par with Raleigh.

For mine, the Mid Pines routing is its strength...mind you, I speak of routing in terms of the walk and natural features used.  Dormie hangs with the other four courses despite its routing causing walking issues...and this is because of the variety of holes revealed by the routing. I do think Dormie has the potential to be my #1 if the walk was sorted (and it largely can be) and some other odd use of hazards (wetland areas)...which may not be a solvable.

Ciao

[David_Madison]

Sean - Please make time for Pine Needles on your upcoming visit. I think you'll be both surprised and pleased by what you see. Kyle did a wonderful job with the bunkering, and the regrassed greens with his adding some contours has made a big difference. The tie-ins between the greens and bunkers is so much better now, and with the greens being as firm as they are you have to be a lot more precise to get to some of the new cupping spots or your approach shot could land on the green and trickle into the sand. The course looks so much better, and it's now a good deal more challenging while still remaining very playable. No question it's now a worthy companion to Mid-Pines.

[Rich Goodale]

Great to see Talamore at number 100.  Last time I was in NC was with a business associate who (like me) had played Pinehurst 2 before and said "Meh?"  Of course it was the 1980's when Club Dork (sic) owned the place.  We asked the guy at the local Vegas Golf store where to go and he said "Talamore!"  Only place I've played where your caddies are llamas (not THE "Lama" as per Bill Murray in Caddyshack).  Decent golf and great fun.

[Jerry Kluger]

Sean: Governors could be good but it needs to get rid of some trees - maybe they are trying to hide the cart paths but it needs wider corridors and some air circulation.

[Sean_A]

Sean: Governors could be good but it needs to get rid of some trees - maybe they are trying to hide the cart paths but it needs wider corridors and some air circulation.

Jerry

Yes, I agree, but for the trees and the too often theme of narrow/wide greens, I still believe Guvners to be good...not exceptional, but good.  I would say it is the equal of Raleigh CC.

David

If the opportunity comes my way, I will try to play Pine Needles in September, but I haven't seen The Road in some time and it is an less windshield time.  I also think we may head for a beach north of Wilmington.  Any recos on where to stay?  If we do go that way I have Wilmy Muni firmly on my radar.

Ciao

[Stephen Davis]

At the risk of committing blasphemy, I think that Pine Needles, and perhaps Mid Pines, are better than PH2. I confess that I played PH2 only once and it was before the restoration whereas I have played PN and MP several times. But even with that caveat, the elevation changes, judicious use of water hazards, and variety of holes at both PN and MP are to me superior.  No, the green complexes are not as complex (redundancy intended), but both PN and MP provide strategic options and challenges that make up for the difference.

Ira - I'm a member at PN/MP and my sense of things is that while #2 is a "great" or "greater" course than either PN or MP, it is not as enjoyable as either. It's way up there for sure, but MP especially is just soooooo much fun. I believe that MP and PN provide superior playing experiences to anything else in the area. MP has the added advantage of being as visually stimulating as any course I've ever played that's not on a big body of water or in the mountains. My favorite measure of "superior playing experience" is the degree to which I want to go from the 18th green to the 1st tee and do it again. #2 is a cool place with a great vibe, especially because of it's history and place in the game. But day after day I'd so much rather play Mid-Pines and now Pine Needles after the recent work.


Using the same "superior playing experience" measure, my three favorites in NC are Old Town, Roaring Gap, and Mid-Pines, and each shows up way, way too low or I guess not at all on the NC Raters list.

Having just completed my dream North Carolina trip, I think your statement is right on. While PH No. 2 is an amazing course and maybe the best in the area/state. I would rather play Mid Pines or Pine Needles on a day to day basis, no question. My top 3 most enjoyable courses in the state are Old Town, Mid Pines and Dormie, with Pine Needles getting the Honorable Mention (the reno work is really great!) Also, for a home club, it would be hard to find something better than Carolina GC. I loved that place! Great company to boot!

[Kevin Robinson]

Interesting how confused everyone still seems to be regarding the design of the present course at Blowing Rock!
I think it's been fairly conclusively proven that the existing Blowing Rock course has virtually nothing to do with Donald Ross, yet it is still listed as such in this panel. Hell, even the club promotes the course as "...the only Seth Raynor design in NC"....although that is a stretch as well!
What's left there is more Tom Jackson than anything else...

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