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J_ Crisham

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2011, 10:27:02 PM »
Dave,  Are we playing at Ravisloe on Good Friday? Would be a great way/venue to start the Easter weekend!Perhaps I should start a thread to see if there is some interest.                                Jack

SL_Solow

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2011, 11:12:42 PM »
Phil;  I have avoided commenting because I was the club President at Briarwood and directly involved in the renovation.  I prefer to rely on those without a hint of self-interest.  But I think I can be reasonably objective.  Briarwood was a well routed and pretty long course on a relatively flat piece of land designed by Allison in 1921.  Minor changes by RB Harris before 1958 left it much the same as Allison had designed it.  After the Briarwood members bought it our super planted a lot of trees but managed to maintain relatively wide corridors. Starting in the 70's the members turned to Nugent and then Lohman to make numerous changes including significant redesigns of 6 holes.  Of those, one was an improvement, another was neutral, one was pretty bad and two were awful as compared to the originals.  Additionally greens had shrunk and bunkers had lost their shape.  It remained a good golf course but there was nothing distinctive.

Mungeam was great to work with. Modest yet decisive, highly organized with a great eye.  We removed about 70 trees (Terry is certain that we need to remove 1 more) after a storm took almost 300.  Greens were expanded back to their original pads with dramatic improvements on several , especially 8 and 9.  Bunkers were reshaped and repositioned to make fairway bunkers relevant and greenside bunkers closer to surfaces while restoring some older approach bunkers.  On the three worst holes Mark rebuilt and repositioned the greens.  I think Shivas will agree that our rebuilt 14 is one of the most interesting relatively short 4's in the area.

All in all it is now a very good course stretching to 7000 yards at par 71 from the back but playing 6400 -6600 for members.  A lot of variety, interesting green complexes.  Not a back breaker but plenty of golf.  I think Mungeam did an outstanding job.  In particular I appreciate his restraint; he didn't try to do too much.  I have some plans in our files from other architects that make what is left of my hair stand on end.  I believe Briarwood flies under the radar because a lot of people haven't seen it.  When we have had CDGA Amateur qualifiers the players have as a rule been pleased.  Our members were very happy with the outcome.
 

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2011, 09:48:49 AM »
I agree with Shivas regarding the work at Evanston.  Fewer courses were more in need of a renovation than Evanston, that's for sure.  It had become rather dreary, with the typical mix of flattened-out and featureless bunkers, tunnels of trees and soggy fairways (a problem corrected by some extensive drainage work).  The work has helped with the bunkers, but the main malaise at Evanston continues to be the lack of interesting golf holes.  It's just sort of boring.  After the fourth hole, the course just goes to sleep, only to awake at the 11th.  12-18 aren't exactly spellbinding, either.  Don't get me wrong, it can be difficult.  You can get into some trouble there.  The 18th, with its fronting pond, can be a real ass-pincher if you need par or better to win a match.  But the shape of the plot of land and the dead-flatness of it seem to conspire against the desire of the architects to create a fun golf course.  It is a terrific club with a lot of fun members and a great neighborhood social scene, but the course that existed before the re-do was not really in any way compelling from an architectural standpoint and the renovation is pretty much the same, even though it's much better visually than it was before.

One other comment about the renovation.  This was easily the most contentious environment for a renovation in Chicagoland.  If I recall correctly, it only passed by a handful of votes.  Based on my anecdotal research, the feelings are still pretty strong, with the "no" votes being quite unhappy with the work and the "yes" votes wondering what the heck is wrong with their fellow members' eyesight.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2011, 03:39:21 PM »
Although now the province of the unwashed public course heathens, honorable mention to Esler's work at Ravisloe.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 04:59:09 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

SL_Solow

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2011, 05:13:38 PM »
Shivas;  I agree.  Dave Esler has really done some terrific work over the last few years.  Those renovations were quite good and Black Sheep is a fine effort.  Another one flying under the radar a la Mark Mungeam.

Mark Johnson

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2011, 09:12:51 PM »
fully agree about Pine Meadows.  love the course and it is an incredible improvement.   its actually my favorite Jemsek course to play.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2011, 11:05:42 AM »
Excellent point about Esler.  I love what he did at Ravisloe.  It turned drab into visually interesting and fun.  Haven't played Park Ridge or Glen View, so I can't comment, but I've heard good things...
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2011, 06:54:21 AM »
Terry,

I'd second the kudos for Glenview.  Didn't play the course prior to the renovation, but now it's a very fun track on a piece of land that has a lot of movement by Chicago standards as well as being a cool old-school club.  I think it'd be right up your alley.  You really need to venture up to the north side more often...;)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 10:00:27 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2017, 03:53:08 PM »
I'm bumping this thread to put Bob O'Link at or near the top of the list. The work that Jim Urbina did is nothing short of remarkable. Every single hole is better and five or six holes are transformationally better. This is a course that has made it into my Top Ten golf experiences in Chicago.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jim Nugent

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2017, 04:37:56 PM »
What about Doak's work at Medinah?  Or is that a restoration? 

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2017, 05:10:47 PM »
That wasn't a restoration, but wow is it a lot of fun by comparison to its former iteration. I would guess that there are at least six holes that were pretty much reimagined and built from scratch.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2017, 06:32:13 PM »
I do always love when these old threads resurface with new info.


Judge, your thoughts on the pre-US Am tweaks/changes on OF North? I have only seen it since that work.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2017, 07:56:38 PM »
I do always love when these old threads resurface with new info.


Judge, your thoughts on the pre-US Am tweaks/changes on OF North? I have only seen it since that work.


I only noticed some new bunkering on five and fifteen and a few bunkers seemed to have been made less severe. They also lengthened the first hole. Nice changes but nothing real dramatic to my eye.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JC Urbina

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland New
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2017, 03:00:32 PM »
Terry,

Thanks for the post,  I am glad you enjoyed your round of golf.  So much has changed on the grounds of Bob O'Link, its hard to put it into a single paragraph.  It wasn't just me, I had many talented people working hard over the summer months of 2015  that allowed this project to happen.   This includes the President of the club and the Greens Chairman.

It starts with the Superintendent, Scott Pavalko.  He bought into the art vs. science conundrum.  How to deliver the expectations of a membership that seeks perfection with my need to respect the art of  a 1916  C.H. Alison design.

Talented shapers like Jeff and Eric, as well as help from Scott Pavalkos staff allowed us to achieve a transformation not seen at this club in over 90 years.  Highlights for me were the offset bunkering that appears to be layered, one on top of another making straight holes seem like dog legs.  Greens that were built at exacting elevations so that at  certain intervals along your walk  they all  appear to be at the same height.  Flags that from one angle appear to be on an opposing greens at distance views  from other holes. Teeing grounds laid out right on the existing topography making the walk appear seamless and most importantly upgrades to drainage, sand mix, irrigation and new turf throughout the entire property.

These C. H. Alison  design ideas were not just happenstance!


I hope more people get to experience this walk.


« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 05:09:57 PM by JC Urbina »