[Mike Bodo]

I think what makes this subject such a daunting one to solve with any type of consensus is the fact that there is a greater disparity in the ability of women golfers than there is men. The vast majority of high handicap male golfers can drive the ball at least 200+ yds., with most low handicap men able to drive it around 280 yds. consistently. That's an 80 yd. difference. Women golfers, on the other hand, have a much wider gap in ability. The best women golfers can hit their drives 230 yds. consistently, while those at the opposite end of the spectrum, such as my wife, can perhaps poke it 120 yds. on one of her better drives. That's nearly a 120 yd. difference. How can we reasonably expect GCA's to account for this disparity in their hole designs? You're literally asking them to do the impossible. I don't know what the answer or solution is, but one thought is to have more Executive 9's built on the same land as the 18 hole course that has a mix of Par 3's and short (300 yd.) Par 4's that women and young kids alike can enjoy and hone their skills on. There is a public course just down the road from our house called Pineview that has exactly this type of setup. My wife prefers playing the Executive or "Little Pine's" 9 there than she does the 18 hole course. It's simply more enjoyable for her. Some food for thought.

[Mike Bodo]

Jan Bel Jan (ASGCA) has measured a lot of women's drives.  According to her, the 140-150 yardstick is a bit high, and at many clubs, the women average about 121 per drive.  It's pretty common for women to drive less than 150.

Agreed! I said about as much in my previous post.

[MCirba]

The best women golfers can always play one of the longer tees but the shortest hitters can't play from shorter tees less than say 4500 yards if they don't exist. 


Mike, I do agree with the need for a greater variety of courses including shorter ones on limited acreage.

[George Pazin]

The best women golfers can always play one of the longer tees but the shortest hitters can't play from shorter tees less than say 4500 yards if they don't exist. 


Mike, I do agree with the need for a greater variety of courses including shorter ones on limited acreage.

Is someone stopping them from dropping a ball elsewhere?

[/size]There are lots of players who regularly fail to carry the ball more than 50-60 yards in the air. This is not a problem unless they WILL lose a ball because of it. It is easy to produce stories of about some old lady or young child who despite their frailty or youth still manage to hit the ball X yards but the reality for many is different. Maybe the attitude which dismisses their ability as not been worth dealing with is part of the problem because it sure ain't any part of the solution.Jon

You greatly misunderstand what I'm saying, or at least seem to be inferring things that I am not saying. I'll expand further when I get a chance.

[MCirba]

George, wouldn't the same apply to men? But convention and peer pressure are very real things and the game need some formalization and structure don't you think?

[George Pazin]

Nope.


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Sorry Jon Wiggett, my post got lost in mini type. I said, I think you are misinterpreting, or perhaps inferring too much from, my thoughts. I will expand later when I have time.

[George Pazin]

Ok, time to expand a little:


When I say it isn't bad to expect a woman - or anyone - to hit a ball 150 yards, I don't mean any architect should put water hazards or canyons in that extend to 149 yards.


My statement that I understand what is meant by "I can't hit the ball 100 yards" means that good architecture will accommodate such a shot, but not at the expense of the better golfer.


Some examples:


- a carry over a bunker at 150 or 200 or 250 or 300 is good... provided there is an alternate bailout route with a carry of zero, 50, 100, etc.;


- making the first 100 yards in front of a tee rough is ok if.... the rough is sparse, largely unkempt (ie not fertilized, watered, etc), kept at a reasonable length where a lesser golfer can play the ball;


- making an obstacle/hazard to carry into a green something that may provide an exceptionally difficult recovery - but not water, a canyon, etc.


That sort of thing. If it takes someone 4 shots to reach the green, that's fine by me (I like the post by the person who highlighted my sentence referring to a score, well done sir. I'll check it out and edit it back into this post.)


I believe in making a course playable for virtually anyone.


I believe in making the consequences of a poor choice brutally hard.


I don't see these two statements as incompatible or inconsistent.


Better golfers seem to think high handicap golfers would a par 4 that is 300 yards long and 400 yards wide, with no hazards and a flat green. Nope, we just want to be able to finish a hole without figuring out the proper drop area.

[Carl Johnson]

The best women golfers can always play one of the longer tees but the shortest hitters can't play from shorter tees less than say 4500 yards if they don't exist. 


Mike, I do agree with the need for a greater variety of courses including shorter ones on limited acreage.

Is someone stopping them from dropping a ball elsewhere?

There are lots of players who regularly fail to carry the ball more than 50-60 yards in the air. This is not a problem unless they WILL lose a ball because of it. It is easy to produce stories of about some old lady or young child who despite their frailty or youth still manage to hit the ball X yards but the reality for many is different. Maybe the attitude which dismisses their ability as not been worth dealing with is part of the problem because it sure ain't any part of the solution.Jon

You greatly misunderstand what I'm saying, or at least seem to be inferring things that I am not saying. I'll expand further when I get a chance.

Response to: "Is someone stopping them from dropping a ball somewhere."re?"

My club has two sets of "Family Tees" marked by flat metal markers set in the ground out in the fairways (par 3's may be different).  (I frequently confuse them for sprinkler head yardage markers, but that's a different story.)  Although meant for children, I think, nothing would prevent shorter hitting adults of either sex playing games from them.  I am certain these "tees" aren't rated/sloped, and I don't know how much use they get at the club, but that would be an option to just dropping anywhere for those who want to play short and have some semblance of order about it.

[Jon Wiggett]

Nope.


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Sorry Jon Wiggett, my post got lost in mini type. I said, I think you are misinterpreting, or perhaps inferring too much from, my thoughts. I will expand later when I have time.

George,


if you click on modify then highlight the small text and resize it to '10' on the font size above then save it makes the mini text legible. Mini text seem to be one of the quirks of the site since the last major upgrade but no big deal for the OP to correct.


To clarify, there were a couple of posts that gave the impression that because little old lady X hit the ball a certain distance all players should be able to and I was just pointing out that there are many players who regularly fail to get the ball over 50 yards in the air. No dig at you or your post.


Jon

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