Shot opportunity and width

[Rob Marshall]

If your tee shot is in the fairway should you have a clean look at the green or is it ok for trees to obstruct your shot or force you to work the ball? Love Harbor Town but as a general design philosophy?


I played a few courses last week where if you hit your tee shot in a bunker your recovery shot was impacted by trees. You had to work the ball under or around. In another case hit a 180 yard shot over a grouping of trees that were between the bunker and the green. Seems excessive for anyone other than a tour pro. Poor design?

[Sean_A]

If your tee shot is in the fairway should you have a clean look at the green?


As a rule of thumb, yes.  I can't recall a good exception to this rule, but there must be some out there. 

I played a few courses last week where if you hit your tee shot in a bunker your recovery shot was impacted by trees.

Don't like this design feature at all.  I can see a sandy waste in pines where there is no lip to go over, but not a true bunker covered by trees.  I wouldn't say its poor design, just too restrictive in how golfers interact with the feature.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

If your tee shot is in the fairway should you have a clean look at the green?


As a rule of thumb, yes.  I can't recall a good exception to this rule, but there must be some out there. 

Ciao

17th at Prestwick?


I do not see why just being in the fairway means a clear view of the green but as a rule of thumb would suggest there should be some part of the fairway from which you have a reasonable shot at the green.

I fully agree the bunker and tree example is just plain silly but then I find that GCAs tend to over use bunkers to the cost of imaginative, original design.

Jon

[Mark_Fine]

There are many many great courses where just because you are in the fairway doesn't mean you have a clear look at the green.   That said there are also many times where there is something stupid (I'll call it poor design) where your view or shot is obstructed. 

[Sean_A]

If your tee shot is in the fairway should you have a clean look at the green?


As a rule of thumb, yes.  I can't recall a good exception to this rule, but there must be some out there. 

Ciao

17th at Prestwick?


I do not see why just being in the fairway means a clear view of the green but as a rule of thumb would suggest there should be some part of the fairway from which you have a reasonable shot at the green.

I fully agree the bunker and tree example is just plain silly but then I find that GCAs tend to over use bunkers to the cost of imaginative, original design.

Jon

The question is in reference to trees...or so I thought.  The difference of course being that in the day, trees could be removed and rather large hills much less easily so.


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


from a playing point of view what is the difference?

[Sean_A]

A shot can be played from a hill...not so much from a tree.


Raw excitement is very much on the side of the hill. 


Often times a hill is far more pleasing to the eye.  You don't care about this, but 99% of golfers do care about aesthetics.


If the hole relies on the obstruction for its juice then the tree is problematic.


Ciao
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Conceptually I have never minded trees encroaching out on the fairway a bit.  You can still advance towards the green IF you can hit the requisite fade or draw.  Some disagree, I know.  On the other hand, if they mowed the affected area as rough, which most do, it just makes for an even harder chance to advance the ball.

Nothing wrong with a wide fairway where some of it is really of no use to you at all, whether blocked by trees, or too moundy to get a good lie, etc.  However, with tight budgets, supers tend to eliminate as much fairway as they can, so that tempers the conceptually ok with some cost reality.

Conceptually again, the difference in the two examples is one you can advance forward, the other (get over sand lip but stay under overhanging trees combo)  means you probably can't.  Again, it might happen sometimes, and if natural, golfers might accept it once per round (if it happens to them) but if its clear the architect made it purposely happen that way, they have little tolerance for it.

[Peter Flory]

17th at Cypress.  It's definitely not good enough to just hit the fairway.  Without the trees, this would be a pleasant hole, but not a great hole.  The 18th is an example as well, but that one isn't a good example. 

[Thomas Dai]

1st para - visual aspects to consider (other than trees) include the likes of humps and hollows and dunes, walls, ridges, use of dead ground, tee shots/2nd shots on long par-4's and par-5's


2nd para - not a feature I like......if I were the client I'd be thinking of having the preverbal 'quiet word in the ear'......bit like having another bunker immediately beyond the bunker in question or a ditch/pond immediately beyond a bunker. Not good for novices/lessor players nor for pace of play.


Atb

[Mark_Fine]

I agree with most of the comments here about trees.  I have never been a fan of trees directly in front of bunkers that block shots.  99% of the time it probably should be one or the other.  Regarding #17 at Cypress, I am mixed on those trees.  I am not sure they would be missed for long if a center fairway Mackenzie style bunker complex replaced them.  Yes the hole would be easier but it might also be better. 

[Will Lozier]

If your tee shot is in the fairway should you have a clean look at the green or is it ok for trees to obstruct your shot or force you to work the ball? Love Harbor Town but as a general design philosophy?


I played a few courses last week where if you hit your tee shot in a bunker your recovery shot was impacted by trees. You had to work the ball under or around. In another case hit a 180 yard shot over a grouping of trees that were between the bunker and the green. Seems excessive for anyone other than a tour pro. Poor design?

Remember that golf is a 3-dimensional game where trees in your path can be dealt with in multiple ways - truly working the ball can require flighting it over or driving it under said obstacle rather than just turning your shot around it.


Furthermore, it you are in a bunker with the obstruction as Sean discusses, you've really hit a bad shot if your course management takes that miss into consideration by thinking backwards from green to tee.


Overall, I think an architect employing such strategy on occasion makes for real interest. On every hole...no thanks!


Cheers