A Discussion On Green Speeds

[Jon Wiggett]

Inland greens cut at 4 or 5mm as fine golf bang on about are miserable to putt on.

Ryan,


I have a lot of time and respect for your opinion but the the above quote from you is about as big a load of closed minded tosh as has ever appeared on this site. There are many examples of inland greens cut at 4mm+ that provide a very good all year round playing surface where as there are fewer examples of a mainly poa putting surfaces that are decent in the summer let alone the winter though it is more than achievable.


One of the biggest problems on the greenkeeper discussion groups is the inability of some to accept that there are many different ways to achieve the goal of presenting a good course for playing golf on and that certain camps have become so entrenched as to not accept any other opinion. Please leave such claptrap off this site.


Jon

[Niall C]

All I said was given the choice, I will take interest and 10 over flat and 12.  In other words, I ain't impressed green speed...its an age old thing.


Ciao

Sean


As a matter of interest how often do you think you come across greens stimping at 10 in the UK ? Most of the time most courses don't get anywhere near that I would think, which often means that any borrow they do have, or rather should have, disappears. It's very frustrating when you read borrows that should be there but don't happen because of the speed of the green.


Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,


if you are reading the greens incorrectly for the speed then it is your problem not the green's. It is true that slower greens are more challenging to hole out on but then they can be also more interesting. I am very much in agreement with Sean.


Jon

[Sean_A]

All I said was given the choice, I will take interest and 10 over flat and 12.  In other words, I ain't impressed green speed...its an age old thing.


Ciao

Sean


As a matter of interest how often do you think you come across greens stimping at 10 in the UK ? Most of the time most courses don't get anywhere near that I would think, which often means that any borrow they do have, or rather should have, disappears. It's very frustrating when you read borrows that should be there but don't happen because of the speed of the green.


Niall

Niall


Certainly less than half the rounds I play are on greens stimping 10+. There are definitely plenty of courses which could do with faster greens, but I am of the opinion that the first aspect to focus on is firmness.  Once that is somewhat sorted, then determine the best speed. Quicker greens are not a subsititute for firmness.


Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

There are very few greens in the UK that are more than five years old that have less than 50% Poa Annua.

Fescue is almost impossible to keep under 6mm. As soon as you drop the height of cut you start to lose it. If you cut at 3mm you will end up with Poa. The cultural methods for Festuca v Agrostis are at different ends of the spectrum. One becomes the nurse crop and that is usually the fescue.

That aside, Poa is not that bad and on it's own or if integrated with bentgrass can produce great surfaces. Top dressing with straight sand is the key, monthly 6 or 7 times per year or perhaps at a lesser rate and bi-weekly if money is less of a problem.

In the 1.62 days no one fed past August 31st. Now people feed Nitrogen all year round and the get what they deserve.

[Niall C]

Sean


That's interesting. I've no real idea what average green speeds are but I seem to recall someone (possibly Tom D, or Ally Mac) saying that you would be lucky if they were any more than 6 or 7 normally in the UK which leads me to think the only way they get to 10 at most places is at the height of the season and for "championships". When you think that they aim for 10 to 10.5 for the Open then you've got to think that many courses never see that the whole year round.


Jon


For sure, if you misread a putt it's your fault. That applies if you read too little borrow as well as too much. In the US the refrain seems to be that often the green speeds are too fast for contours by which I take it they mean that they can't get the ball to stop. That's patently not a problem over here. I can only guess as to whether US greens generally have bigger contours than classic UK courses generally have but I suspect they do. That, allied to slower green speeds over here, or so it would seem, means often putts don't take borrows that you know are there until they slow right down at the end. Can't help thinking that a bit more speed to some of those greens would make them a whole lot more interesting.


Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall


I have no idea what average green speeds are in GB&I, but my guess is maybe 8-9 in summer. Lets put it this way, I can recall only once thinking the greens were purposely too fast and that was at Renaissance...a pretty wealthy club.  I do recall the fastest greens I have ever encountered were at Brora during a drought, but they weren't a true roll...kind of crusty and unpredictable.   

Asking what is the ideal green speed is like asking how long is a piece of string.  Assuming a GB&I course has greens which have interesting contours/slopes and are fairly firm (a big assumption!), I would say for most places, 10 is about the top speed necessary to allow the greens to shine. I am fine with 9ish because I know its a more affordable speed and they are quick enough if firm.


Once speeds are below 8ish I don't think we are getting close enough to the full effect of the design.  On most big name courses this is not often an issue in season. Most of the time its a seasonal deal that we have to accept as part of 12 month golf and that becomes more evident the further north one is.  The last time I played a top course with inferior greens was Dornoch.  This year, I could see nothing wrong with Elie's greens to explain why they weren't cut, but they were noticeably slow and it negatively impacted the architecture. 


Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Inland greens cut at 4 or 5mm as fine golf bang on about are miserable to putt on.

Ryan,


I have a lot of time and respect for your opinion but the the above quote from you is about as big a load of closed minded tosh as has ever appeared on this site. There are many examples of inland greens cut at 4mm+ that provide a very good all year round playing surface where as there are fewer examples of a mainly poa putting surfaces that are decent in the summer let alone the winter though it is more than achievable.


One of the biggest problems on the greenkeeper discussion groups is the inability of some to accept that there are many different ways to achieve the goal of presenting a good course for playing golf on and that certain camps have become so entrenched as to not accept any other opinion. Please leave such claptrap off this site.


Jon

Jon


My language was sloppy, I agree. What I'm really saying is that I've not seen many predominantly poa greens that putt to my liking at the height of cut that fine golf push. It is just my preference. I do also agree with judging the results not the method, which is why I object to the tone and approach of fine golf when it comes to maintenance and their constant sniping about height of cut.

[Thomas Dai]

I am old enough to remember the days when greens were not cut every day, not even in the prime of the golf season. I can even remember greens with daisies growing on them. Even now in the prime season some courses do not necessarily cut every day, the greens may be driven over but there's not much cutting going on, circumstances can dictate.



7-8-9-10-11 or whatever stimp they may be when cut and initially speed/stimp tested they won't be that for long - drying out, footfall, sun/shade, wind, rain etc etc. And some greens change character and thus speed at different rates to others - exposed greens, shaded greens and the like. Plus slopes on some greens may be okay at higher speeds but on others on the same course the ball will be rolling away from pin areas so the overall average speed will be dictated by the green with the most puttable mix of contour/roll-off/pin positions etc. Also how accurate are the speed readings, not the stimp process, we know that, but how many greens are being stimped to give an accurate initial daily average reading or is it the same area of the same green each time and always on the green nearest the sheds. And green speeds can be quickened up not just by h-o-c but by the use of green rollers etc.


Lots of generalisations, lots of variables. What works for some may not for others.


Atb

[Niall C]

Sean


If you put me on a green and told me it was 6 or it was a 9, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I really have no feel for these things but if you judge that the fastest a links is allowed to get is 10.5 (Open standards) and that according to some more knowledgeable that average speeds a re a good bit slower, there is still a fair gap between what is average and what is doable, and what lies in between usually is a more suitable speed for a lot of these greens. Your experience at Dornoch and Elie seem to bear this out.


BTW, I agree that firmness is a prime objective but don't see why that can't be looked at in conjunction of faster greens speeds, where merited.


Dai


As admitted to else where, agronomy isn't my strong suit but I'd be surprised if most clubs in UK cut on a daily basis. I might be naive in saying that but wouldn't be the first time.


Niall

[Sean_A]

Sean


If you put me on a green and told me it was 6 or it was a 9, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I really have no feel for these things but if you judge that the fastest a links is allowed to get is 10.5 (Open standards) and that according to some more knowledgeable that average speeds a re a good bit slower, there is still a fair gap between what is average and what is doable, and what lies in between usually is a more suitable speed for a lot of these greens. Your experience at Dornoch and Elie seem to bear this out.


BTW, I agree that firmness is a prime objective but don't see why that can't be looked at in conjunction of faster greens speeds, where merited.


Dai


As admitted to else where, agronomy isn't my strong suit but I'd be surprised if most clubs in UK cut on a daily basis. I might be naive in saying that but wouldn't be the first time.


Niall

Niall

10ish for the southern England links is not uncommon in summer. Places like Maxstoke Park, Copt Heath and Coventry, no name clubs, get their greens to 10ish routinely in the summer. Coventry's and Copt Heath's are some of the best quality greens I have ever seen.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

10 is very quick. I think the better UK clubs are between 8 and 9.5. 10 or 11 is a speed you can get too for a one off day and you can probably add the extra 1 stimp with rolling.


The Stimpmeter is a great instrument but it is almost impossible for a ball to register a 5, that pretty much needs to be semi-rough. The ball rolling out of a tube at the angle will always take it to 7.


The real range is in quarters from about 7 upwards to 11.


A stimpmeter reading can't be 15. At a true 15 a ball will move to the lowest point.


You can have a theoretical 20 or 30 stimp if it is downhill and can obviously register infinity.


Real stimp readings are over flat ground where in either direction the balls meet with 0.5 of a stimp.


1 stimp equals 1 foot so you can have a reading of 9.11.

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian:

The fastest greens I have ever seen were at Chicago Golf Club in the fall, four years ago.  I'm told they were 15 or 16, but at that speed it's di to get an accurate measurement because anything more than a 2% slope and the ball won't stop.  We played 18 holes in those conditions and it was harrowing, like playing in 50 mph winds:  fun to see but I'd never want to do it again.

Green contours in America are generally more pronounced than in Britain, at the same time speeds are faster:  the game is very different.  I'm Headed to the UK next week and will make a guess at the green speeds I see in Devon and Cornwall.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian:

The fastest greens I have ever seen were at Chicago Golf Club in the fall, four years ago.  I'm told they were 15 or 16, but at that speed it's di to get an accurate measurement because anything more than a 2% slope and the ball won't stop.  We played 18 holes in those conditions and it was harrowing, like playing in 50 mph winds:  fun to see but I'd never want to do it again.

Green contours in America are generally more pronounced than in Britain, at the same time speeds are faster:  the game is very different.  I'm Headed to the UK next week and will make a guess at the green speeds I see in Devon and Cornwall.

Tom if your Bristol way on the M4 pop in for a coffee.

[Mark Pavy]

I think you'd all be surprised as to what a golfer would accept as a golf green.

It's pretty funny that some suggest the priority is firm greens.....in Britain.

Be a golfer- play the conditions.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,


I agree with what have said in the reply.


Adrian,


It is well accepted that 5mm is the optimal HOC for fescue and does not put it under any strain. You can even get away with 4.5mm for long periods with no ill effects so where you come up with 6mm I do not know but would suggest that if this was your experience then you need to correct your maintenance program.


Fescue and brown top bent are very happy together so I am assuming the when you say Bent (agrostis) you mean palustris (A4, L93, etc) and if so then except in the deep south this will struggle in the UK.


Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ryan,


I agree with what have said in the reply.


Adrian,


It is well accepted that 5mm is the optimal HOC for fescue and does not put it under any strain. You can even get away with 4.5mm for long periods with no ill effects so where you come up with 6mm I do not know but would suggest that if this was your experience then you need to correct your maintenance program.


Fescue and brown top bent are very happy together so I am assuming the when you say Bent (agrostis) you mean palustris (A4, L93, etc) and if so then except in the deep south this will struggle in the UK.


Jon

No I mean 6mm. In fact at 7mm you will keep far more, have you not noticed how much more fescue are on collars where the heights are maybe 9mm. Fescue and Agrostis have totally different cultural methods, one likes food one does not. One will be dominant. I don't want to argue with you just dont reply to my posts please.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

I agree that there is a point where getting an accurate stimp reading can be difficult. However faster greens can be accurately measured. The newer USGA stimpmeter has two sides where there is a x2 meter for undulating greens. The release point is further up the stick so a shorter flat area is required to provide an accurate reading. The measurement is then doubled to give the stimp reading.

I have personally seen greens stimp at 16 for a European Tour event [/size]which was pretty accurate as the average ball roll was within a foot in both directions . However the greens were relatively flat so could handle it, that's not to say a lot of subtly came into play which made them really interesting.
[/size]The stimpmeter was designed as a consistency tool to compare greens on a course, but unfortunately over the years it has become a measurement. Comparing speeds from course to course isn't smart as some greens than handle more speed over others so a 12 on one may feel slow whereas a 10 on an undulating one may feel like lightening.There are a lot of ways to grow grass and get the same results. No matter how you get there I've always had the philosophy that smoothness, firmness, trueness and (if those are good) speed all go in hand in hand. Generally if one is lacking it will effect the others.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,


I agree with what have said in the reply.


Adrian,


It is well accepted that 5mm is the optimal HOC for fescue and does not put it under any strain. You can even get away with 4.5mm for long periods with no ill effects so where you come up with 6mm I do not know but would suggest that if this was your experience then you need to correct your maintenance program.


Fescue and brown top bent are very happy together so I am assuming the when you say Bent (agrostis) you mean palustris (A4, L93, etc) and if so then except in the deep south this will struggle in the UK.


Jon

No I mean 6mm. In fact at 7mm you will keep far more, have you not noticed how much more fescue are on collars where the heights are maybe 9mm. Fescue and Agrostis have totally different cultural methods, one likes food one does not. One will be dominant. I don't want to argue with you just dont reply to my posts please.

Adrian,


there is no argument in this matter just facts which clearly show you are wrong. Just by stating something does not make it true. 5mm is a well accepted norm and just because you do not agree does not alter that. On the Agrostis you have not answered which one?


Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jon - Palustris is part of the Agrostis family so is Tenuis (browntop). The Agrostis family have the same basic cultural methods albeit creeping bent is far more aggressive. Agrostis likes food and water Festuca likes lean and dry. You can't please both in the same sward although higher ground on green will be leaner and more likely to include fescue. Agrostis is tolerant of closer mowing.


Show me pure greens of fescue cut at 4.5mm and I will bow to your superior knowledge. We cut at 5mm but we are losing it and why we cut at 5mm is because most golfers wont accept 6mm. We have courses at 7mm that are strong and contain fescue but they don't get so much play and the budgets don't allow. Most people are happy with a poa mix. Bent and Poa integrate more reasonably than Fescue and Poa which cause more bumpy surfaces later in the day because the growth rates are different.


Fescue is better longer, anything else is salesman talk.

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,


palustris and tenuis have very different growth characteristics which require different management programs. Whilst you would use a different program for tenuis if you were trying to encourage a high % of it in the sward it does very well under a program geared towards fescue.


I never mentioned anything about a pure fescue sward and have always pointed out that a mixed sward is the desirable end product. The reason why the emphasis is on maintaining for fescue is that it is the most suseptable to being out competed where as tenuis and poa will happily sit along side it in the sward under such a program.


To answer your questions, there are plenty of examples of fescue/tenuis/poa swards being cut at 4.5mm during periods of the summer. The optimal height is 5mm over the long term though and this is more than achievable for a good quality fescue/browntop/poa sward.


Happily Adrian, there are many courses and methods so we can both be happy with what we have.


Jon