4 touring pro's recently played CPC. What did they score? (Not OT)

[David Davis]

I wonder if that really has happened...hitting it off the 18th into the ocean just to make sure you don't break the course record. I highly doubt it. Sounds more like folklore.


Jim Langley the former pro also shares the record with Hogan. That would make it all the more special for the club in my opinion.

[jeffwarne]

The four pros were Davis Love, Bubba Watson, Ricky Fowler and Nick Watney.  It was supposed to be a sequel to the famous match at CPC between Hogan, Nelson, Ward and Venturi. 

I took some modest liberties with 'recently': they played in October 2012.  All four players had won on the PGA tour at the time, with over 30 victories between them (now it's closer to 40).  Bubba was the reigning Masters champ.

Their scores:

Love          67
Bubba        70
Watney      71
Fowler        73

Some questions that immediately come to mind:

1. Why did they score so high?  Even if this was their first time at CPC, I would expect players of that caliber to dissect a 6500+ yard course. 
2. Would other tour players score similarly there?  Assume the most diabolical pin positions possible.     
3. If the answer to the 2nd question is yes, what does that say about the need to make courses ultra-long, to defend against elite players taking them apart? 

I realize this was a small sample, both in time and of players.  Even so, the article that covered this said Hogan's 63 is still the course record (as of 10-2012).  It makes me wonder what lessons (if any) CPC might have in this day of 7500-8000 yard courses.

It (their four scores) doesn't surprise me at all
144-156 players play in a full field event-many play poorly and more than half miss the cut.
So the chances of all four being "on" at the same time are very low,
They're relaxed and enjoying themselves.
They don't have their regular caddies, they don't play a practice round.
Cypress is a great course, the players are no doubt in awe, the greens are not usual tour perfect- probably "California bumpy" poa (which is probably the biggest reason)

[Pete Lavallee]

Jeff,


My buddy and I had the privilege of playing CP this spring and I can assure you that the greens are running true; I made a lot of putts in the 7-10 foot range which never happened on the old Poa Annuua. There are two reasons in my opinion for this change. The first is Primo, a growth inhibitor which has seemed to be universally accepted here on the West Coast. It has a lasting effect for 20 days and really keeps those seed heads down as well. I have noticed a distinct change in watering habits the last 10 years as well. We used to have soggy greens where even long irons would create huge crater like ball marks, today you have to search for your wedges mark. The upside is less foot prints around the hole which obviously allows for more made putts.


I'll speculate that the strength of CP is the Par 5's, where Tour Pros generally make their living. Even though they are just long par 4's for them they are fraught with danger. One loose shot certainly forfeits their automatic birdie and if you compound your mistake by being overly aggressive you wil pay a higher price. Normally I'll hit 3 wood and try to get as close to a par 5 green as possible. We had one of the better caddies at CP, Stacy and he had me laying up with mid irons. The bottom line was the par 5's killed me on my first round there but by employing an ultra conservative strategy the second time I was even par on the 5's.


The short par 4's present the same type of temptation challenge. You just have to love a golf course that gives you plenty of rope to hang yourself with!

[George Pazin]

The sample was small, but even so, no one here came close to guessing the right scores -- we weren't in the right zip code.   

You won't believe me, but I would've guessed they averaged around 70. People - everyone from the golf geeks on here to the greatest architects, or players, or sportswriters, or Nate Silver himself or even the guy who came up with Strokes Gained - don't fully understand the nature of scoring in golf. You don't get half strokes for hitting it longer, or closer, or whatever.


It's a lot more complicated than that.


 

[Carl Nichols]

The tour average this year (all courses, all rounds) is 71.18, which is almost a full stroke higher than these guys averaged.  I didn't look for 2012.


 

[Alex Miller]

The sample was small, but even so, no one here came close to guessing the right scores -- we weren't in the right zip code.   

You won't believe me, but I would've guessed they averaged around 70. People - everyone from the golf geeks on here to the greatest architects, or players, or sportswriters, or Nate Silver himself or even the guy who came up with Strokes Gained - don't fully understand the nature of scoring in golf. You don't get half strokes for hitting it longer, or closer, or whatever.


It's a lot more complicated than that.


 

Well said.


Add to that CPC is:


1. Not a flat course
2. Not a course they have played many times
3. At sea-level creating the potential for a departure from distances these guys are used to hitting at their respective homes




I'm more concerned that these guys lost to the Ryder Cup CAPTAIN. Ready for another European drubbing...

[Jim Nugent]

The tour average this year (all courses, all rounds) is 71.18, which is almost a full stroke higher than these guys averaged.  I didn't look for 2012.

It seems to me you are putting CPC on similar footing as PGA tour courses.  You're saying their scores were close to the average this past year.     

In 2012, they were closer still.  The median was slightly under 71.  I think that means the average was a bit lower. 

Here are the 2012 scoring stats (actual scores) on tour for the 4 players:

Bubba     69.98
Davis      70.72
Watney   70.91
Fowler     71.22

So Davis is the only one who really bettered his average that year.  Bubba and Watney practically nailed their average, and Fowler was nearly two strokes higher. 

Cypress is a great course, the players are no doubt in awe, the greens are not usual tour perfect- probably "California bumpy" poa (which is probably the biggest reason)

If bumpy greens are the reason, that suggests a simple way to keep scores 'reasonable' while not making the courses ultra-long. 

[Carl Nichols]

The tour average this year (all courses, all rounds) is 71.18, which is almost a full stroke higher than these guys averaged.  I didn't look for 2012.

It seems to me you are putting CPC on similar footing as PGA tour courses.  You're saying their scores were close to the average this past year.     

In 2012, they were closer still.  The median was slightly under 71.  I think that means the average was a bit lower. 

Here are the 2012 scoring stats (actual scores) on tour for the 4 players:

Bubba     69.98
Davis      70.72
Watney   70.91
Fowler     71.22

So Davis is the only one who really bettered his average that year.  Bubba and Watney practically nailed their average, and Fowler was nearly two strokes higher. 

Cypress is a great course, the players are no doubt in awe, the greens are not usual tour perfect- probably "California bumpy" poa (which is probably the biggest reason)

If bumpy greens are the reason, that suggests a simple way to keep scores 'reasonable' while not making the courses ultra-long.

Jim--
So these four players' average score that day was 70.25, while the same four players' average on tour that year was 70.71.  The sample size is obviously not even close to big enough to draw any conclusions, but if you did, you'd conclude that Cypress is slightly easier than the average tour course....which I guess would mean that if the tour held an event there this weekend, the winning score would be, what, -16 or something?  [Not sure what the average winning score is on tour these days] 

[Bill_McBride]

They probably would have scored better with local caddies than their tour caddies. 10, 11 and 16 would be the only hard holes.  Course rating 73.1 at 6500 yds. Guess their handicaps are -6. Little rough.
So I guess a their composite was 270, with a low of 66, assuming they used their caddies.

Note: I did not crib from TD. The course rating I gave was from this year's scorecard.

Pete, are they now playing #10 as a par 4?   Even I made par as a par 5 my two rounds there. 

[Sean_A]

There is golf and there is tournament golf.  I don't think we can draw any conclusions about the pro game based on 4 pros kicking it around CPC.


Ciao

[Pat Burke]

I have been fortunate to play CPC in tournaments as an amateur (Cal Am) and pro.


I Also WAS in the fortunate club of being invited for my birthday a couple times by a good friend.


Someone mentioned tournament golf vs kick around, and I certainly played differently in those situations.
In my birthday rounds, taking it left on two, driver on 4, hook off five, at pin on seven, and really aggressive lines
on 8,9,12,12,14,17. 
16 is a much more aggressive shot than in most tournament rounds.
That mentality can produce a lot more excitement, a lot of birdies, and potentially a few disasters, but it is so damned much fun to push those shots in those rounds that I can't help myself


In tournaments, a bit more conservative, which does have the effect of giving a lot of opportunities and less disaster.  Probably a lower average, but not as many crazy low (and high) opportunities

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, how do you think today's touring pro's would score, if they held a PGA event at CPC?  Cut, winning score, etc.  Assume they set the course up to play real difficult -- hard pins, F&F surfaces.   

[Kalen Braley]

I still think its far too premature to draw anything from this based on the lack of data points.


Play a full field event here with 155 players, where they have two practice rounds, followed by 4 tourny rounds and I suspect there would be a shit ton of very low scores...

[Pat Burke]

Pat, how do you think today's touring pro's would score, if they held a PGA event at CPC?  Cut, winning score, etc.  Assume they set the course up to play real difficult -- hard pins, F&F surfaces.

If the greens are f&f and it is normal weather, no crazy wind, there would be a lot of low scoring.
There is a decent amount of room off the tee, and anough short holes that a guy who has his distance feel is going
to get a lot of looks at birdies.  Those same players will be able to keep the ball in decent places on the greens to have good looks all day.
You would see a lot of scary god starts through 12, a few who would lose shots finishing , but overall, a sea of red numbers.


15+ mph of wind, and a lot changes. 
My experiences at CPC were that scoring was pretty easy if playing well because the surfaces on and around the green seemed perfect to hit the shot I wanted.

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, how do you think today's touring pro's would score, if they held a PGA event at CPC?  Cut, winning score, etc.  Assume they set the course up to play real difficult -- hard pins, F&F surfaces.

If the greens are f&f and it is normal weather, no crazy wind, there would be a lot of low scoring.

Sounds a bit like TOC during the Open Championship.  In calm conditions, lots of pro's take the course apart.  When the wind blows hard, par can be a good score. 

When are conditions toughest at CPC -- i.e. what time of year?

[George Pazin]

15+ mph of wind, and a lot changes.

Surely it gets 15+ fairly often, no? Or is Monterey just a little bit too perfect?

[Pat Burke]

In my limited experiences it's either a bit breezy...or howling

[Mark Bourgeois]

/this vision of a beautiful sunny day, pro after pro pumping it into the Pacific on 18 tee.