[Peter Pallotta]

Thank you gents - for the good answers and some good laughs. It seems near-unanimous: this game we love and its wonderful fields of play would not re-constitute themselves in any way that we'd be very familiar with. You might all be right, you group of realistic pessimists; but I think there is a glimmer of hope/light - found in Matthew's post:

The Sheep Ranch.

Maybe this is what I missed: I just assumed the game and its fields of play would re-emerge in GB&I; but of course, they wouldn't -- they'd be re-born in America! In Oregon, to be precise. 

That old set of clubs -- or quickly copied additional set(s) -- could well find their way to that rugged coastline and huge swaths of wind-swept natural settings, and once the sticks and ball got there so much might become apparent (to at least one young Tom Morris):

That large landforms and contours and wind and angles and blind shots and natural hazards made this new game more fun and adventurous and challenging -- that there was great pleasure to be had in eagerly hiking over a hill to discover where your ball had ended up, and that great variety was added to the game by alternating the times you hit the various length clubs in the bag.

Maybe?

Peter

Tommy - just saw your good post; beauty and peace golf offers like no other sport I know. Yes, Jung was referencing humanity's more fundamental aspects, and much deeper regions of the soul/psyche than that from which games emerge. But like the narrative of a dying and re-born King that seems embedded in the very structure of our consciousness, I wonder if the "principles" of any ball and stick game are similarly embedded there.
   

[Tom_Doak]

Tom D


Re point 2 in your post. I'm just reading a book by Peter Lewis, the R&A history guy (not his actual title) called "Why 18 holes of golf ?" or something like that, that goes into the history of how courses evolved into having 18 holes. Only on chapter 3 (of 18, naturally) but it is clear that for hundreds of years there was a great variety in the number of holes on a course until the middle and late 1800's. Before that, what seemed to determine the number of holes was the extent and nature of the ground.

Niall:


Yes, I'm well aware of that, which is why I said it took so long for thing to become standardized.  Leith had 5 holes, Blackheath 7, Musselburgh 9, St. Andrews 22 originally.  I don't think it was until they started the Open Championship at 36 holes, which was conveniently 4x around Musselburgh, 3x around the original 12-hole Prestwick, and 2x around St. Andrews, that they standardized the game to 18 holes.


Just another example of tournament golf having an inordinate impact on how the rest of us play the game!




Also, Peter:


I'm sure I would never have come up with the design of The Sheep Ranch if I hadn't been so familiar with those early Scottish courses and how they worked.

[Matt Schiffer]

This is the most beautiful thing I've read all day!  In light of this, I'd answer Peter's original question by taking a long hike in the public space that Ballyhack presently occupies (but won't in your alternate universe).

     Jung was speaking more about our spiritual and social heritage. The collective unconscious contains all humankind’s evolution.  So what are those things that relate to humankind’s social and spiritual heritage in golf? I doubt they would be the “how we play the game.” So much of the game is relational and aesthetic. Golf is one the more social games because there is so much down time. Action is fleeting and the moments between shots long. Certainly this would be replicated anew. Common to the human experience is the desire for beauty. Beauty is eternal. When people ask me to describe God, I simply tell them “God is eternal beauty.” Something in us craves beauty. I was at Ballyhack for a few days this week. The walk to the first tee takes me past nine and six. As the dew glistens in the sun and the front nine unfolds before you, it takes my breath away. When I stand on the fifteenth tee and see the fairway and bunkers unfold beneath me with the mountains in the background, I will just pause and drink it in. Golf would evolve with the relational and aesthetic intact. As to what we do with the clubs, I am not sure.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - thanks, I think your last line gets precisely to the heart of this.  You are saying, in essence, that you stand on the shoulders of the past, and that your work/ideas/approach is based on what has come before. I on the other hand am suggesting the possibility that the ideas/approaches as made manifest in a course like The Sheep Ranch would over time manifest themselves all over again even if there were *no* past examples -- and that in the future someone like you (or any natural born architect) interested in this stick and ball game would slowly realize that the game was more interesting and challenging and fun when the fields of play utilized the characteristics I describe above. 

I suppose good sense and humility both should dictate that I accept what *you* say about yourself as being more true than what *I* say about you....but unfortunately I happen to think you're wrong    

[Tom_Doak]

in the future someone like you (or any natural born architect) interested in this stick and ball game would slowly realize that the game was more interesting and challenging and fun when the fields of play utilized the characteristics I describe above. 

You're assuming there is such a thing as a "natural born architect."  I've come to realize over the years that I do have certain talents for my profession -- the ability to read a topo map and to think in 3-D, and the ability to write and express myself clearly -- but nearly all of what I know about actually designing a golf course comes from having studied a lot of other golf courses.  Without those, I don't know if I'd have been any good at this or not.

[Bob Montle]

I recall starting a thread one time proposing that we'd likely have better overall golf courses if we dropped the 18 hole standard, or even the 9 hole standard and instead just created as many good golf holes as a particular parcel of land might comfortably allow.   

Good point Mike.  Look how Prestwick was only 12 holes when they hosted the first Open.

As for the rebirth of golf ...
I sadly think the answer is no.

Except...
I still like the thought of that club and ball being found in the highlands of Scotland, and some boys 'inventing' a game with them.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - well, that strikes me as genuine humility on your part (as I understand/use that word). You may be right that there are no "natural born" architects (or anything else), but I do think that maybe talent + love does (potentially) open the door to a deeper wisdom (potentially) buried in the unconscious...and so maybe your work *isn't* dependent on the past to the extent you believe it is.

But as I say, there is a reason all the world's spiritual traditions enjoin us to be humble...and perhaps it's because humility not only makes us healthier and happier, but also reflects some basic truth, i.e. that we are in large part merely *capacities* for good work, *channels* for this good work, and that this work isn't *ours* in the way we sometimes like to think. Good on you for honouring/focusing on the good work of the past 

Bob - yes, I like that thought very much as well.

Peter   

[Russ Arbuthnot]

If golf were reborn, I think it would look more like the urban golf shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZ7f5Oj5dA

[Carl Rogers]

     Jung was speaking more about our spiritual and social heritage. The collective unconscious contains all humankind’s evolution.  So what are those things that relate to humankind’s social and spiritual heritage in golf? I doubt they would be the “how we play the game.” So much of the game is relational and aesthetic. Golf is one the more social games because there is so much down time. Action is fleeting and the moments between shots long. Certainly this would be replicated anew. Common to the human experience is the desire for beauty. Beauty is eternal. When people ask me to describe God, I simply tell them “God is eternal beauty.” Something in us craves beauty. I was at Ballyhack for a few days this week. The walk to the first tee takes me past nine and six. As the dew glistens in the sun and the front nine unfolds before you, it takes my breath away. When I stand on the fifteenth tee and see the fairway and bunkers unfold beneath me with the mountains in the background, I will just pause and drink it in. Golf would evolve with the relational and aesthetic intact. As to what we do with the clubs, I am not sure.

Tommy & et al,
I add two more elements to this:
1. Watching the Golf Ball in flight is one of the more intriguing life experiences one can have..
2. The Golf Club itself is an interesting combination of aesthetics and physics.

[Matthew Mollica]

Wonderful post Tommy - if the game is erased and someone finds the lone set of clubs, I hope it is someone like you.

[Kalen Braley]

I have to agree with the prior sentiments.  TopGolf is a hit from what I've observed.  It wins in so many ways:


1)  Everyone can play in the same group
2)  Less expensive.
3)  Much greater variety of games, not just match play or stroke
4)  You can lounge around in comfy couches while others are hitting.
5)  Much smaller time committment. (1-2 hours)
6)  You don't need your own clubs.
7)  Everyone can play together, as opposed to being spread out over the course.
8 ) No one yapping about pace of play.
9)  TVs to watch during play.
10)  Still has the competitive element.


I know many don't like this, but this is what many want in terms of time, value, entertainment, and bang for your buck!

[JLahrman]

I've been to TopGolf several times. I think it's a ton of fun. But it isn't a golf experience. It's for someone who wants a little bit of golf with a food & drink experience. The choice is not TopGolf vs play a round of golf. It's TopGolf vs. bowling alley or Alamo Drafthouse. I cannot understand why so many people here are so up in arms about it.

If we're erasing traditions let's start with the fake tradition of taking your hat off to shake hands on the 18th green.

[Kalen Braley]

I've been to TopGolf several times. I think it's a ton of fun. But it isn't a golf experience. It's for someone who wants a little bit of golf with a food & drink experience. The choice is not TopGolf vs play a round of golf. It's TopGolf vs. bowling alley or Alamo Drafthouse. I cannot understand why so many people here are so up in arms about it.

If we're erasing traditions let's start with the fake tradition of taking your hat off to shake hands on the 18th green.

JLahr,


I understand what you're saying here, but to those who don't play actual golf, TopShot is actually golf to them, perception-wise.


And in my opinon, i think TopShot will do more to "grow" the game than anything else going on right now.  The way I got into golf was by going to a driving range and having fun, not by being thrown on an 18 hole course and facing a 150+ shot slog.  I probably went 4-5 times before I tried my first 9 holer experience. I think TopShot will get people an intro to the game and hopefully X amount will eventually try the real thing.

[JLahrman]

JLahr,

I understand what you're saying here, but to those who don't play actual golf, TopShot is actually golf to them, perception-wise.

And in my opinon, i think TopShot will do more to "grow" the game than anything else going on right now.  The way I got into golf was by going to a driving range and having fun, not by being thrown on an 18 hole course and facing a 150+ shot slog.  I probably went 4-5 times before I tried my first 9 holer experience. I think TopShot will get people an intro to the game and hopefully X amount will eventually try the real thing.

Personally I don't think it will, but I could be wrong. If you've never played golf before, and you go to TopGolf, I think it's more likely to get you into beer-drinking or become another option for going out with friends instead of getting you interested in learning the game of golf. I would guess the percent of non-golfers who visit TopGolf and then go on to try the real thing is very very low.

[Mark Chaplin]

Golf could be saved if the 6 hour game returned. 3 on the course and 3 for lunch, bring back the wine committee and golfers trains back to London on Sunday evening.

[Colin Macqueen]

"........ bring back the wine committee and golfers trains back to London on Sunday evening."


Absolutely my dear Chap! Absolutely!  Damn that Beeching fellow! 4000 miles of jolly fine track gone to hell in a basket!


Cheers Col

[Mark Chaplin]

We've still got the track but members are expected to muck in with socialists, wets and there's not a first class carriage in sight. Obviously a decent wine committee would help to block the memories of such indignity.

[James Brown]

I suspect what is true for golf on this premise could rightly be said for most of the other major games we play.  Baseball is much more anachronic than golf and has little prospect to evolve.

[Dave McCollum]

Wow.  Staggering into this tread drunk on so much philosophical wine.  My own initial reaction to Peter’s premise is best expressed by Rihc:

 “Interesting, Peter, but in reality, if such a discovery were to be made, once that single golf ball was lost (probably in the first 30 minutes or so), the clubs would be broken up for kindling and/or melted down for scrap.  It is not a game for the 21st century.”

We love it because of its tradition, history, as an anachronism, its difficulty, and because of the peculiarity of the playing fields.  I have no love of exclusivity, attraction to the rich man’s game, as an “aspirational” recreation, a status symbol, and all that crap, but would concede that all are part of the evolution of the game and our culture as golfers.  There is not much I can add to this discussion beyond my own impression that Tom D. gets the essence right and Peter is chasing windmills.  Not a bad thing on Peter’s part having this discussion as it is one of the better topics to come along lately.  It asks us why we love it.

[Colin Macqueen]

Aye Dave,


I've told that Peter fella a fair number of times that he is  Don Quixote in the golfing kingdom  ...tilting at windmills indeed. But as you have "...stagger(ed) into this tread (sic) drunk...." (I know, I know I have been a wee bit selective wi' my quote here!) and have Peter CHASING windmills I fear he must now be a lost soul on the plains of La Mancha!


But yes Peter, a very thought provoking topic which has inspired neat thoughts and insights about the gowf.


Gracias!


Colin

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()