[James Brown]

Hi Everyone:


Couple of questions about the Loop.  When will it be fully grown in and open for regular play?   It does not look like it is full open yet from the website.


Second, what is the plan for alternating the red/black routing?


Is there a caddie program there?


How good is the Weiskopf course by comparison?  If you were to play 5-6 rounds, how many would you play there?

[Rick Emerson]

I stayed at Forest Dunes for one night this summer. The first Day I played Kingsley and then drove to Forest Dunes and played the Loop in the Afternoon. The next day I played the Loop in the opposite direction in the morning and played Forest Dunes in the afternoon.
To answer your questions.
1. The Loop was till growing in and although the lies were not perfect it still played firm fast and true for the most part. Putting was not perfect, but it was still a fun course and they are giving you a discount for the less than perfect (but, in my opinion, good enough) condition . The limited play was a blessing as I played both rounds on the Loop in under 3 hours and my round on Forest Dunes was 5 hours. I do not not know when it will be fully open. Maybe next season. I am sure Mr. Doak could answer that one.
2. They play the Red one day and the Black the next. Thus, you will have to spend two days there to play both directions. In order to play the Loop right now you have to spend the night anyway. It is a great way for the resort to get overnight guests.
3. The Loop is walking only and they do provide caddies. They are in the process of training them. I was cheap and didn't take one. However, there is no doubt a caddie would have helped and if you are only going to play it each way once it would probably be worth it.
4. The Weiskopf course is a good modern course. It was interesting, had a good mix of long and short holes, and the greens had some pretty descent undulations. It was immaculately maintained with very fast greens. However I think next time I would plan a two day one night trip and try to play twice a day each day on the Loop as there is so much nuance to understand. I would then sneak in a third round one day on Forest Dunes. I'm interested see others who have been there answer this question.

[Jim Franklin]

Not sure when it will be fully open and the fairways will be fully grassed, but, as Rick said, it is still pretty good now. Firm and fast, and if your lie is a little thin, you roll the ball an inch or two into a decent lie. None of my clubs came away with any chips or scratches. The greens were firm and rolled much better than I was expecting. Our club put in the same type of grass recently and it took a year for them to really get receptive. I think The Loop will play firmer than my course though.

Again, they will change direction each day and, I believe, change pin positions every other day which I think adds to the experience. I really enjoyed the other course. I did not play it this time, but the first time I played it, I zipped around fairly quickly. It looked crowded so not sure how long a round will take.

I did take caddies both times. $60 fee to the club plus tip. Nit sure what the club gives the caddy out of the $60. They suggest a $25 tip. My caddies were really good and added to my experience so I gave a little more.

[Tom_Doak]

James:


I just got back from playing The Loop this afternoon, with three friends ... ages 81, 45, and 11 !  Fun to see how it played for them all.


The course IS fully open, but to limit play this year, they are only letting people who stay at the resort play the course -- so, no more than 50 rounds a day, and usually less.  That gives the superintendent some chance to catch up on the grow-in.  They really shouldn't have opened until August or the first of September, but it's hard to turn people away who are standing there wanting to hand you cash, and of course they want people to talk up the course so there will be a full tee sheet next year!


The greens are as firm as any I've played and they are starting to get some speed ... I'd guess they were 10 on the Stimpmeter today.  Fairways are still thin, but he's finally had some rain to help with the overseeding and fertilizing.  He's been aiming to have it pure for a golf event we scheduled for mid-September, and I think it's going to be pretty good.


The intent is to alternate between Red and Black every day so that guests will stay and play it both ways around.  They will change the hole locations every day, too, although this summer when play was light they sometimes would leave them in so that people could play to the same hole locations from the other direction.


The other course is very good, and most people would tell you to play it just as many times as you play The Loop. But if you are really interested in golf design, you're going to want to play The Loop a few times, as Rick Emerson suggests.  There is a lot to figure out there, and it's doubly hard to remember the holes after one or two trips around because they are all different the next day!  [So, it may score low on memorability for the GOLF DIGEST raters, but variety is off the charts!]

[James Brown]

James:


I just got back from playing The Loop this afternoon, with three friends ... ages 81, 45, and 11 !  Fun to see how it played for them all.


The course IS fully open, but to limit play this year, they are only letting people who stay at the resort play the course -- so, no more than 50 rounds a day, and usually less.  That gives the superintendent some chance to catch up on the grow-in.  They really shouldn't have opened until August or the first of September, but it's hard to turn people away who are standing there wanting to hand you cash, and of course they want people to talk up the course so there will be a full tee sheet next year!


The greens are as firm as any I've played and they are starting to get some speed ... I'd guess they were 10 on the Stimpmeter today.  Fairways are still thin, but he's finally had some rain to help with the overseeding and fertilizing.  He's been aiming to have it pure for a golf event we scheduled for mid-September, and I think it's going to be pretty good.


The intent is to alternate between Red and Black every day so that guests will stay and play it both ways around.  They will change the hole locations every day, too, although this summer when play was light they sometimes would leave them in so that people could play to the same hole locations from the other direction.


The other course is very good, and most people would tell you to play it just as many times as you play The Loop. But if you are really interested in golf design, you're going to want to play The Loop a few times, as Rick Emerson suggests.  There is a lot to figure out there, and it's doubly hard to remember the holes after one or two trips around because they are all different the next day!  [So, it may score low on memorability for the GOLF DIGEST raters, but variety is off the charts!]

Thanks, I was trying to,get a sense of how much "depth" there is to the Loop, design wise.  A lot of the great courses take 3-4 playings to really appreciate them at all and some only take once.  I am super intrigued by the test of designing a course this way.  From the pictures in Ran's review it looks like the best kind of subtleties, which is my thing.  Seems to me the best test of architecture is doing the most with a piece of land with above average, but not epic features.  The land at the loop looks vaguely like Pinehurst. 

[Tom_Doak]

I was trying to,get a sense of how much "depth" there is to the Loop, design wise.  A lot of the great courses take 3-4 playings to really appreciate them at all and some only take once.  I am super intrigued by the test of designing a course this way. 

One of my friends who played his second round on the course last week, said that they should advertise coming up to spend a whole week playing the course every day, so you could start to understand it.  That sure would be a change of pace for the hit-and-run, rate-two-courses-in-a-day crowd!

[Jim Franklin]

I was trying to,get a sense of how much "depth" there is to the Loop, design wise.  A lot of the great courses take 3-4 playings to really appreciate them at all and some only take once.  I am super intrigued by the test of designing a course this way. 

One of my friends who played his second round on the course last week, said that they should advertise coming up to spend a whole week playing the course every day, so you could start to understand it.  That sure would be a change of pace for the hit-and-run, rate-two-courses-in-a-day crowd!

This is what I told my friends that want to come out and play. If they really want to understand what they played, we need a week there. The food is excellent and the accommodations are really good too so I see no reason why one couldn't stay a week and fully immerse themselves in the nuances of The Loop.

And Tom is correct, The Loop had the highest variety of any course I have rated. It really is a surreal experience the first time you go the other way. Loved it.

[James Brown]

Is it viable to find a way to play Crystal Downs during a trip to this part of Michigan?

[Tom_Doak]

Is it viable to find a way to play Crystal Downs during a trip to this part of Michigan?

Crystal Downs is open to limited unaccompanied guest play, in May and then from the day after Labor Day until the end of October.  You've got to get the professional at your home course to call and set it up.  I think there is a maximum of three foursomes on any given day, so you'd better get in line early ... I called a month ago on someone's behalf and there were only three dates in September available.

[James Brown]

Is it viable to find a way to play Crystal Downs during a trip to this part of Michigan?

Crystal Downs is open to limited unaccompanied guest play, in May and then from the day after Labor Day until the end of October.  You've got to get the professional at your home course to call and set it up.  I think there is a maximum of three foursomes on any given day, so you'd better get in line early ... I called a month ago on someone's behalf and there were only three dates in September available.

Sweet.  Thanks!

[Steve Lang]

  Ms Sheila & I played the Red Loop today, Sept 5th, so alternate which loop from there as a benchmark if you're going to make it to play yet this year before the snow flies, which can be anytime after mid-Sept, up here near the 45th parallel.

they're only doing morning tee times, (20 today), and we were told not to go out and walk it in afternoon as maintenance were out then... we saw a lot of water sprinkling going on, as its been basically warm and dry for the last 2 months.  The turf as noted previously is very adequate, though on some tees it was hard to pin it.  Balls rolled out and we discovered some kick zones out there that are worth aiming for if you can hit where you aim.  We discovered things for ourselves, which I find most fun.  Looks like there is a perimeter cart path, which I'm sure seniors would love to have access to, to play from a cart in future! 

They're on 15 min tee times, and it was 4 hour trek with push carts,.. pushing threesome ahead of us. Elliot the Pro told us they'd be on full 11 minute tee times next year, just like the FD course.  He also said we could bring our own push carts next year (yeah!), they currently only have two dozen available, first come first served... though said they'd reserve one if you're over 65.  It was nice to have benches at the par 3's too, to give a quick foot rest.. they'll definitely be used next year

We met up with some caddies from Houston area near us, they were being brought in as the college and teenage caddies are back to school now.. jeremy who has caddied for the owner and did 36 for Matt B during the recent 100 hole hike (which reminds me I never paid up TD, will correct that), was showing them around walking the Black loop.. great gig for the next two months!

The greens were very fast and unforgiving today. First putt on practice green reinforced that!  I found it best to use my TX wedge from up to 25 yards off the green, which was quite fun and productive.  The Red Loop didn't seem particularly hard from the middle tees due to the fairway width, seems though that I was destined to play from many rough areas (and that not so big maple tree on the right of that one par 5) the yardage book said to keep away from.. just kept looking at them and hit there, but recovered!  Ms Sheila shot 48-47 and I went 40-41, both from the middle tees, mainly erring short to bounce onto the greens, as going directly onto, let alone deep into almost any green seemed and generally proved fairly dangerous.

I suspect the Red Loop course won't have a high USGA slope or rating when they do that analysis later this month.  However the Red was very enjoyable, a great walking adventure, can't wait to get back next year and play the Black Loop instead of just taking pics.


I've played the FD course at least 7-8 times and can "play" it's features now, so I look forward to doing the same on the Red & Back Loops i coming years. I would split my rounds, do twilight on FD course to get in the most golf.

ps.  bring some bug spray as the nats are bothersome this year,
pss  TD did you use some organic matter layering before sprigging the fescue?  Hard to believe there's sand under the fairways, yet one sees it on borders of things

pics later

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