pics from Harbor Shores in MI

[PCCraig]

#10 HAS to be the worst modern green every designed. I know that the club hangs their hat to it, but is it awful.

Anthony,

I've heard a number or remarks about people not caring for it but none stronger than yours.  I'm curious why you feel it's so awful?  From a maintenance perspective?  Playability?

Ken

It's an extreme green...but awful? I don't know.

It's a very short par-5 with a very wide fairway, and the way I see it if the pin is up top, you lay back and try to pitch a wedge shot up there and if the pin is up front it gives you a sure "green light" to go for the green.

To be honest, the first time I saw the green, the pin was up top and I thought the front portion was actually a fairway/false front.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Sorry for the delay...but this just is not golf, especially at a course that is going to be host a Major Senior event TWICE in the next 3 years!

[Ken Fry]

Anthony,

I'm still not getting it.  What makes it so awful?  Extreme?  Yes.  So??  It's a reachable par 5, very reachable.

How do you feel about #4 at Lost Dunes?  How about #15 at Crooked Stick?  Just trying to gauge what you think is creative and what you think is awful....

Ken

[Andy Troeger]

Played Harbor Shores on Monday. Its quite the ride through a number of different types of areas--but I still liked it quite a bit. The short par four third was an early standout, and I really thought the back nine got into some pretty good stuff. I have mixed feelings on the 10th green--I think its overkill but agree with Ken's point that its a short par five and as such I think its ok. I felt the same way about #4 at Lost Dunes--not my favorite feature on that course but certainly unique. The bowl at the rear of the 11th green really makes that hole easier than it looks, so if the 10th is harder there's some balance to it.

The course is a bit disjointed with the long rides, but there was nothing that could have been done about it given the property they had to use. My two criticisms of specific holes were that the 7th green was way too small up on that dune to accept shots from outside about 150 yards unless perfectly struck and the silly heather-grass mounds in the middle of the 8th fairway. I believe changes are contemplated in both cases already, so that'll help. Otherwise, the quality of the individual holes is really very good IMO.

[Anthony_Nysse]

#4 at Lost Dunes is tame in comparison. I, personally, do not believe that there is any place for 6 foot slopes on modern greens. Not just in the maintenance aspect, but in the golfers aspect. In Andy and Ken's case, I'm sure their taste is different than mine and things may look dofferent in their eyes, but that's just goofy to me.
  Andy, I thought that the green on #7 was great-I hit a 9 iron out of the left fairways traps to 8 feet! In all honesty, that green, given its raise of 40-50 feet above the fairway, is was too small for anything to hold is youre hitting more than a 9 iron, especially if the pin is front. 

[Ian_L]

Anthony,

Could you explain why exactly you think the green is so terrible?  Sure, putting from one tier to the other would be very difficult, but so would a deep bunker shot.  Most around here have no problem with that (although I don't know what your opinion is on deep bunkers).

I think it's something novel that adds interest to the hole.  The fact that it is unique is a plus in my opinion, but I would love to hear your thoughts on why this is a no-no from a golfing perspective.  I haven't played the course, so I am remarking more on the concept than the green itself.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Ian,
  I guess it boils down to personal preference. I see no need to build greens with 6-7" swales into them; I understand if you're trying to preserve old architecture, but this a modern course that will be hosting 2 nationally televised, Senior Majors. Like I said, I look forward tohear their comments once they play it. It's just not my cup of tee on any level. I perfer something more fair. Also, 550 yds par 5 isn't exactly short....

These are a few photos of #7

From the fairway


Greensite

[Ken Fry]

Anthony,

550 yards is not exactly short unless the tee shot is downhill, the hole predominately plays down wind and the conditioning of the course continues to be firm.

A well placed tee shot leaves typically puts players in that 200-230 yard area.  I have about 7-8 rounds on the course with varying hole locations.  If the pin is on the front of #10, that's a massive backboard to hit into.  Fan it out a little right and the ball is in the gully.  Bail left and you're left with a heck of a tough pitch shot.  Play it short and you still have that massive backboard.  If the pin is up top, I've found it easier to play well left of the green.  The fairway extends quite far left of the green to allow players to reach the same plateau the pin is on.  There are many options to explore on this hole which I find quite fun.  To me, the hole has two separate greens (although Jack proved a putt can be made from the bottom to the top tier).

Quite frankly, this green, while extreme, is more playable than hole #15 at Crooked Stick.  The boomerang green on #15 just doesn't work.  The contouring won't allow putting like the 7th at Crystal Downs can.

I understand your dislike for the green, but stating that #10 at Harbor Shores is the worst modern green ever designed is more than a little stretch.

Ken

[Anthony_Nysse]

Ken,
  Thank you for your thoughts. I will stick with mine.

[Kalen Braley]

I thought I would bump this as I was away from the site when this thread was active.

 I turned on the TV today and saw this wild course that looked like a cross between Jim Engh and Mike Stranz.  After doing a little looking around, I was surprised to see it's a JN course, especially with those super wild greens.

As a lover of quirk, I suspect I would have fun out there , especially after looking at pics of #7 and 10.  But the feedback seems pretty mixed from the treehouse...

Thoughts from anyone else?

[Kyle Henderson]

The holes look neat in pictures, but a quick study of google maps show several LOOOONG green-to-tee transitions.

I thought I would bump this as I was away from the site when this thread was active.

 I turned on the TV today and saw this wild course that looked like a cross between Jim Engh and Mike Stranz.  After doing a little looking around, I was surprised to see it's a JN course, especially with those super wild greens.

As a lover of quirk, I suspect I would have fun out there , especially after looking at pics of #7 and 10.  But the feedback seems pretty mixed from the treehouse...

Thoughts from anyone else?

[jeffwarne]

Architecturally OT but my High School teammate finished 7th.
Quite a story-multisport athlete who didn't play in college-turned pro at 35.
Is 6 for 6 in one day qualifying.
and on the closed shop Senior Tour(does anybody really call it PGA Tour Champions), that 7th place finish does not give him a spot in next week's event-because the PGA Tour does not run the event ( a lame excuse to keep the newcomers out)




Edit:
great to see the Principal Charity Classic has given Scott Parel an exemption into this week's event.
Guess they see more drawing power in a currently competent player with a compelling story than a ......

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

Not to be cynical, but I suspect what puts butts in the seats and draws ratings on the Senior tour is names....

As opposed to the regular tour which is supposed to be about getting the best field possible week in and week out, regardless of names

But I could be wrong about that...

[Matt Glore]

I thought I would bump this as I was away from the site when this thread was active.

 I turned on the TV today and saw this wild course that looked like a cross between Jim Engh and Mike Stranz.  After doing a little looking around, I was surprised to see it's a JN course, especially with those super wild greens.

As a lover of quirk, I suspect I would have fun out there , especially after looking at pics of #7 and 10.  But the feedback seems pretty mixed from the treehouse...

Thoughts from anyone else?

The course isn't full quirk.  The 10th is very playable most of the time.  You only have a wedge or less in your hand, with three significant greens all coming together.  Its no different than missing a small green on the wrong side with short club in your hand, you should struggle.
#7 is great, the guys played it nearly all down wind, the wind quartered for a bit on Sunday but then went back to down wind.  When it's dead into you they have other tee options to use.
YES, it's about impossible to walk, no issue for me to take a GPS cart and go around in 3 hrs.  The course is always in great condition, and the views are fantastic.  Why not play it! 

[PCCraig]

YES, it's about impossible to walk, no issue for me to take a GPS cart and go around in 3 hrs. 

Just curious, how much daily play is it getting? Is it busy on Friday/Saturday when the vacationers are in town, and slow during the week?