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paul cowley

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Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« on: May 02, 2016, 02:49:52 AM »
ca·denc·esBalanced, rhythmic flow, as of poetry or oratory.The measure or beat of movement, as in dancing or marching.
a. A falling inflection of the voice, as at the end of a sentence.
b. General inflection or modulation of the voice.
Music A progression of chords moving to a harmonic close, point of rest, or sense of

Cadence...the golf design element that separates wheat from chaff. Sounds good but very hard to achieve. It's another level beyond individual hole design that requires a marionetteers skills...especially when considering a piece of dirt in situ. You can think it, but you only relax when they play it...and like it. Which rarely happens after one round because it usually has elements that are on the edge. Sometimes luck happens and nature makes it easier for the talented to control the flow. The Best talents create the flow.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 11:39:43 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2016, 08:28:22 AM »
Paul,

Agree, of course.  Now, tell us how YOU manage to achieve this on the normal site (i.e., not Cypress Point where the routing naturally takes you in and out of different land zones?)

At some point, the gca, must find a practical way to implement the lofty principles, no?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2016, 08:54:34 AM »
This reminds me of two vignettes about two of the great swing clarinettists, Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw.
- Backstage before a benefit concert in New York, Frank Sinatra and a group of musicians were sharing some laughs when Frank notices Benny off in a corner by himself, practicing his clarinet. Frank approaches and says: Benny, come on over and join us. Benny says: Thanks, Frank - no, I need to keep practicing. Frank says:  You've been playing your whole life, why do you need more practice? And Benny answers: Because if I can't be great tonight, at least I'll be good.
- During the war years, Artie Shaw gave his band two weeks notice and then quit the business. When a friend asked him why, Artie answered: I'm always tense and unhappy these days. That damn clarinet is hard enough to play anyway, and if you're not happy and relaxed when you're playing you can forget about it -- there's no way you can improvise good music that way.   

Which is to say: I think walking that knife edge is the necessary state of mind for creative excellence, i.e. on the one hand, always striving for greatness; but on the other, always staying loose and in the moment -- the "doing" and the "letting it happen" at the same time. If there is magic is gca, I think maybe that's part of it.

Excuse the interruption; please continue.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 09:16:39 AM by Peter Pallotta »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2016, 11:33:09 AM »
Nice interlude Peter...hardly an interuption. Probably the best thing about this thread so far!


Jeff...I can tell you in detail how I have managed the givens, the have's and the have not's on any of my individual course designs because that's whats woven into the process....regardless of poor site, good site, or great site. A lack of talent could have screwed up a Cypress Point as easy as a Shadow Creek.


I would approach a normal site the same way, by balancing the highs and lows and lulls that the site either gives me or lacks on its own. A site always gives you something, even if it's nothing...and that's not profound, just true...and then the beat starts there.


When I try to analyze it formulaically I come away with a loss. Trying to assign rhythm/cadence by analyzing a courses handicap sequence doesn't work because that's only using statistics for hole strength or weakness, and doesn't factor in fun, quirk, timing, risk reward or other intangibles that can give a golf course that something extra.


Musical composition is a good analogy. Bob Dylan probably best sums it up best with "something is happening here but you don't know what it is. Do you Mr Jones?"


Thanks Peter







« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 11:53:42 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2016, 12:26:03 PM »
Paul,

Well, that is sort of what I am driving at.  When you try to describe things you do, it almost automatically sounds formulaic, and maybe it is.  Even in music, for example, people (probably not the artists themselves) have analyzed pop songs, and found things like the first three notes ascend 99% of the time in well loved songs, or that certain chords and chord patterns appear more often than not.  As designers, we probably intuitively know what makes a course rhythmic, but at some point, while not a well formed thought, it is rooted in experience, a la, courses we have played or designed and we subconsciously design in things we liked elsewhere.  And, it that is what it is, then it could probably be described after enough self analysis.

I agree it goes beyond handicap, length, par, etc.  However, some of it is in the variety in what you do control as designer is the start of it, I think, even if intuitively done. 

I suspect you look at your various prelim routings, always first for good holes, but when they are similar, start looking at your variety of pars, lengths, uphill/downhill, etc.  Some of the basics start your rhythm, over say, four long par 4 holes in a row.  Then, in feature design you might look, again leaning heavily on what each hole gives you, but then maybe looking at more or less bunkers, flatter and rolling greens, etc.

I do like your inherent concept of highlight the highs and lows, rather than trying to bring the least good hole "up to snuff" with more design features.  I always wondered when Tillie said you had to beat a hole into being acceptable in polite company (not exact quote) and whether that meant he was trying to even them all out to some sort of standard. 

Some have actually thought Dye and maybe Fazio, in efforts to make their high end courses more and more spectacular have sacrificed rhythm in their designs to a degree.  Some might think the minimalists might break their mold to create some more and less spectacular holes every so often.  (I realize there is more than the visual to cadence, but in a visual age, it does play a part) 

It's harder to think about cadence when design emphasis is on 18 "signature" holes, no? Just like when courses started being designed more frequently in housing tracts.....the idea of wind balance (and close green to tee walks) sort of took a back seat to routing for housing frontage, and it became less a priority than before. 

I suspect this generation thinks less about cadence than previous ones, but it wouldn't be universal and easy to demonstrate.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2016, 01:23:34 PM »
Jeff...agreed on all counts!


and obtw...sorry I missed you at the conclave (unless you didn't go) next year for sure!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2016, 02:07:35 PM »
Paul,

Didn't go this year.  Did they settle on a location for next year?  DC courses didn't do it for me, although I would have liked to go early and play Lester's courses around there.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2016, 02:21:32 PM »
Paul:

I agree that cadence is important, but I personally don't think much about it until late in the process, after I've found most of my golf holes.  I think it's easier for me to tinker with it later on because I'm generally not trying to build hard courses, so I'm rarely stuck with a  stretch of long, difficult holes.  When you have a bunch of shorter ones it's easy to amp them up where appropriate.

When do you start thinking about it?


[Edited to eliminate all-thumbs iPhone mistakes.]
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 04:00:59 PM by Tom_Doak »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2016, 03:49:02 PM »
Tom - I start when at the beginning of the routing process but I'm much like you in that I prefer to refine a lot of the course characteristics later in the game when I've become more involved. I really hate boxing myself in too early...preferring instead to make decisions that allow for the greatest options later, although that's not always possible with some sites. Many times I will identify a key feature or hole opportunity that lets me build not just one hole but design two or three additional that relate to each other as part of this 'cadence' thing....Amen Corner or Pebbles #6, 7 and 8 as examples. Hell #6 at Pebble could have been a medium length par 4 playing to an elevated visible green...#7 a medium length par 3, and #8 a par 5 with a kick ass capish second shot over the water to a green complex tucked farther down the right side of #9, with a green hard on the oceans edge...and reachable in 2!


...but I like the current version better...primarily for the quirky unknowns of 6 and 8, and the audacity at times of one of the greatest short holes in golf...#7.


Anyway this cadence thing is easier done than said for me...designing with words is best left for you and Peter!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 04:59:14 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2016, 05:52:05 PM »
Huh, I would have thought it started somewhere between San Angel and Sammy Gs.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2016, 05:53:59 PM »
Wow...I just realized you could put the entire footprint of #16 hole at Cypress in the area I described above for a par 5 conversion of #8 at Pebble....combined with an elevated second shot from the landing area to to the green...or bail left.


Hmmm...maybe that's where Lady Marion got her original idea for #16 CP  ;)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2016, 08:59:51 PM »
This is one of my favorite concepts. I wrote about it my interview back in Feb, calling it the artistic routing. Using ebb and flow, building to a crescendo, and then a small reprise. Ian Andrew and I had a nice conversation about it in March when he was down here at Streamsong. He likes the roller coaster analogy, I prefer the Spinal Tap reference of not having the volume on 11, but the idea is that the best golf courses build to something. Even the Doak 10 type courses with 18 holes individually that are world class, they always seem to build and climax and not normally on the 18th hole either. If you have the volume on 11 all the way around then the effect of the best holes/features will be missed via dilution.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2016, 10:42:29 PM »
He likes the roller coaster analogy, I prefer the Spinal Tap reference of not having the volume on 11, but the idea is that the best golf courses build to something. Even the Doak 10 type courses with 18 holes individually that are world class, they always seem to build and climax and not normally on the 18th hole either. If you have the volume on 11 all the way around then the effect of the best holes/features will be missed via dilution.


I agree with your last point, but just to play Devil's Advocate, how much do you think Hugh Wilson or George Crump thought about cadence?  [Hint:  even if Hugh Wilson did think about it, William Flynn changed the cadence of Merion quite a bit in the 1920's when the middle holes were changed and some of the early holes renumbered.]  The fact that different great courses have different cadences is often not a deliberate act, so much as serendipity which people turn out to like.


Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2016, 01:12:24 AM »
.....and how many years did Old Tom tinker with St Andrews?  and you guys reckon you can get the cadence right in one go...before even playing the course once.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2016, 07:57:24 AM »
.....and how many years did Old Tom tinker with St Andrews?  and you guys reckon you can get the cadence right in one go...before even playing the course once.


...no Mark not at all, which is why I wrote this in the threads preamble  "Cadence...the golf design element that separates wheat from chaff. Sounds good but very hard to achieve. It's another level beyond individual hole design that requires a marionetteers skills...especially when considering a piece of dirt in situ. You can think it, but you only relax when they play it...and like it. Which rarely happens after one round because it usually has elements that are on the edge. Sometimes luck happens and nature makes it easier for the talented to control the flow. The Best talents create the flow"
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 12:20:43 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2016, 10:36:55 AM »

b. General inflection or modulation of the voice.
Music A progression of chords moving to a harmonic close, point of rest, or sense of



A Duran Duran cover band could say the same about their cadence as could Beethoven or Beck.
An architect could do the same, just as many architects parrot what Tom posts here.
Cheers
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 09:42:56 AM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2016, 10:42:17 AM »
He likes the roller coaster analogy, I prefer the Spinal Tap reference of not having the volume on 11, but the idea is that the best golf courses build to something. Even the Doak 10 type courses with 18 holes individually that are world class, they always seem to build and climax and not normally on the 18th hole either. If you have the volume on 11 all the way around then the effect of the best holes/features will be missed via dilution.


I agree with your last point, but just to play Devil's Advocate, how much do you think Hugh Wilson or George Crump thought about cadence?  [Hint:  even if Hugh Wilson did think about it, William Flynn changed the cadence of Merion quite a bit in the 1920's when the middle holes were changed and some of the early holes renumbered.]  The fact that different great courses have different cadences is often not a deliberate act, so much as serendipity which people turn out to like.


I know better than to start analyzing the evolution of Merion on this website ;D


Different makes the world go round, but there is surely a theme among the very best, intentional or not.


One place I think modern courses/architects/shapers need to pay more attention to the idea of cadence/restraint/"volume 11 disease" is that we are constantly outdoing ourselves with artistic bunkering. It is almost too easy to build these beautiful sprawling bunkers or sandscapes with chunks and islands and beyond, and it is like every feature needs to be the best feature on the golf course. Part of it I think is the nature of the business, the competitiveness, and the fact that so many of us are independent contractors and budding architects trying to just make it to the next project that the we lose sight of the big picture in making that golf course as whole as good as it can. I'm certainly not saying that we need to dumb down our creativity, or make things less interesting, but so much gets lost by overstimulation.

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2016, 11:41:05 AM »

Musical composition is a good analogy. Bob Dylan probably best sums it up best with "something is happening here but you don't know what it is. Do you Mr Jones?"


Or Buffalo Springfield:  "There's something happening here.  What it is ain't exactly clear"
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2016, 07:55:22 PM »
One place I think modern courses/architects/shapers need to pay more attention to the idea of cadence/restraint/"volume 11 disease" is that we are constantly outdoing ourselves with artistic bunkering. It is almost too easy to build these beautiful sprawling bunkers or sandscapes with chunks and islands and beyond, and it is like every feature needs to be the best feature on the golf course. Part of it I think is the nature of the business, the competitiveness, and the fact that so many of us are independent contractors and budding architects trying to just make it to the next project that the we lose sight of the big picture in making that golf course as whole as good as it can. I'm certainly not saying that we need to dumb down our creativity, or make things less interesting, but so much gets lost by overstimulation.


I think I might have tried to make this point to you in the 18th fairway at Simapo ... as I did to Kyle Franz on the 5th at Stone Eagle ... and to many other interns or associates along the way.   :)   The same thing can happen with greens.  It's the down side of having too much talent on any one job, but there are positives that come with that, too.  Just be grateful there are a few of us who are willing to risk erring on that side, instead of the standard approach, which utilizes no budding architects at all. [size=78%] [/size]

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2016, 06:11:36 PM »
Well, I planned the rhythms at Laval-sur-le-lac (Blue)

Gentle start, very aggressive 3rd, reprieve at 4, hard holes at 5 and 6, drivable one at 7, then a string of hard holes till 11, a series of opportunities on the next three, then hard coming home.

I thought about each change of pace and the balancing of opportunity and perseverance at irregular intervals.

Some of this was done by going short when holes could have been longer or by being more architectural aggressive when the time came for something to unnerve the player a little.

Smaller green, higher elevation, stronger bunkering, wide open approach ... there so many ways to emphasize a moment. Press harder or lay off a little.

My2C

I hope people feel it when they play...
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cadence...the rhythmic soul of design
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2016, 07:01:06 PM »
He likes the roller coaster analogy, I prefer the Spinal Tap reference of not having the volume on 11, but the idea is that the best golf courses build to something. Even the Doak 10 type courses with 18 holes individually that are world class, they always seem to build and climax and not normally on the 18th hole either. If you have the volume on 11 all the way around then the effect of the best holes/features will be missed via dilution.


I agree with your last point, but just to play Devil's Advocate, how much do you think Hugh Wilson or George Crump thought about cadence?  [Hint:  even if Hugh Wilson did think about it, William Flynn changed the cadence of Merion quite a bit in the 1920's when the middle holes were changed and some of the early holes renumbered.]  The fact that different great courses have different cadences is often not a deliberate act, so much as serendipity which people turn out to like.


I know better than to start analyzing the evolution of Merion on this website ;D


Different makes the world go round, but there is surely a theme among the very best, intentional or not.


I think we will all find our own cadence for a course if we like it or dislike it enough. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing