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Carl Johnson

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What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« on: March 25, 2016, 03:12:00 PM »
 What about sand bunkers (assuming bunker, not waste area) bleeding into water?  It looked to me like there was a bunker on the right side of 17 green at Bay Hill (Palmer’s course) that bleeds into a pond or lake to the bunker’s right.  Aside from my personal judgment that it looks weird (this is not a natural ocean beach bordering a course), what are the architectural pros and cons?  It seems to me that there would be maintenance issues if the pond level varied.  But beyond that, what are the rules issues?  Do they paint a red line in the sand to indicate the boundary between lateral hazard (the water) and the sand bunker hazard?  What if your ball is in the sand, but inside the lateral hazard line?  Any rules complications, or are you simply just in the lateral hazard?  Fortunately I’ve not personally encountered such a situation during play.
 

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2016, 12:01:11 AM »
It seems best to include the sand in the hazard. If so it would not be a bunker and you could drop out of sand under hazard penalties.

Steve Salmen

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2016, 07:48:26 AM »
I've never played Bay Hill, but from TV I think the bunker on 17 looks fantastic. Running straight into the water makes it look like a beach.

Thomas Dai

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2016, 08:29:02 AM »
Pretty sure I've seen an old black and white photo of the 12th at ANGC with the stream edging against the front bunker sand.
Atb

Matthew Rose

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2016, 03:51:36 PM »
I used to occasionally play a course in Rockford, IL called Aldeen... I think it was a Nugent/Killian and they had three or four of these bunkers. I didn't mind the effect but it did seem kind of out of place in Midwest, USA. It probably makes a little more aesthetic sense in Florida.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

John McCarthy

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2016, 05:11:41 PM »
It was a feature on most if not all the Nugent courses I have played.  Aldeen as mentioned above, Kemper Lakes, George Dunne/Forest Preserve National, Harborside, Glendale Lakes and others I cannot recall.  If used sparingly it is fun.  A maintenance issue is the bunker becomes a superhighway for all the Giant Canadian Geese to get in and out of the lake.  They hang out in the bunker and crap all over.  Many of them are really disgusting.
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Richard Hetzel

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2016, 07:26:09 PM »
I think I may have only experienced this design effect once in all my time playing golf. Where? King's North in Myrtle Beach. I always thought it looked "sloppy".


Like this???












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Steve Lang

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2016, 09:31:44 PM »
Oak Tree's old 17th (when I last played) has a nice bunker that melts into the pond, hole is well named "Eternity" for experience of watching ball cross the pond, especially when wind is up


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« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 09:37:04 PM by Steve Lang »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2016, 09:32:16 PM »
It doesn't look too sloppy on #14 at Pine Valley  ;)   Maybe someone here can post a photo?  The design idea comes from the true links courses along the estuaries in the British Isles. 

Tim_Weiman

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2016, 01:52:42 AM »
It doesn't look too sloppy on #14 at Pine Valley  ;)   Maybe someone here can post a photo?  The design idea comes from the true links courses along the estuaries in the British Isles.


Mark,


#14 at Pine Valley works.......for some reason......but I am not sure that means this concept works well elsewhere.
Tim Weiman

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2016, 08:37:25 AM »
Tim,
As you know, most design concepts come from the original links courses.  These beach bunkers we are talking about here were just one of them. Of course they don't work well everywhere but you could say that about many other design concepts.  Do bright white sand bunkers work well on all parkland courses?  Do wild and crazy greens like you would find at The Old Course or North Berwick work well and look natural on non-wind swept non-links courses?  Do double greens work well?  Do blind shots make sense?  The list goes on. 

As I have said here many times, most design features used in moderation can work if executed well.  It is when you see repetitive use of the same concept over and over that it gets old fast!

Note: There used to be sandbars along the stream on #13 at Augusta and I loved it.  It made the hazard unpredictable and added a level of temptation for golfers.  Many more would consider going for the green in two knowing they might still have some kind of recovery shot (ball hangs up in a sandbar half in half out of the water).  The powers to be screwed up when they raised the water level of the stream to all but assure a ball hit in the hazard was unplayable  :'(

And finally, maybe we should ask Bill Haas what he thinks   ;)
Mark
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 08:58:57 AM by Mark_Fine »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2016, 09:08:13 AM »
It was a feature on most if not all the Nugent courses I have played.  Aldeen as mentioned above, Kemper Lakes, George Dunne/Forest Preserve National, Harborside, Glendale Lakes and others I cannot recall.  If used sparingly it is fun.  A maintenance issue is the bunker becomes a superhighway for all the Giant Canadian Geese to get in and out of the lake.  They hang out in the bunker and crap all over.  Many of them are really disgusting.


Yes, Dick Nugent used those a lot in the era I worked for him, starting at Kemper Lakes No. 7, which also included a RR Tie wall (vertical stacked) as well.  As mentioned, a neat twist for variety if used once in a while (no more than once per course, for sure)  Since being on my own (31 years now) I built 2 or 3 of those on 50 courses.


The inherent problems are holding the sand up (easily done by cutting a 4" lip just below the water line) and drainage.  Where the typical bunker has a 4" drain tile a 1-2 feet below the sand surface, obviously, you can't do that (or at least it won't drain) when the water table is level with the bunker.  Add in the capillary action of water in sand, and the lower portion and often more (as seen in photos) is usually wet.  The problem is even more acute on lakes where the water level will vary quite a bit, either the typical nightly draw down of an irrigation lake, or the occasional water level rise due to flood storage after rains.


It works better if it sits up above water level, maybe with a rock wall if you want it right on the lake, but then, you no longer have what Dick Nugent called a "beach bunker."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2016, 09:08:55 AM »
I hate it when such naturally occurring things like pure white sand bunkers in the middle of bright green grass look "sloppy" because they mix with another hazard, Kind've like when the peas mix with the mashed potatos ....I guess.......
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2016, 07:33:39 PM »
I think I may have only experienced this design effect once in all my time playing golf. Where? King's North in Myrtle Beach. I always thought it looked "sloppy".


Like this???




I think this looks fine because it replicates a beach...though the rest of the scene is a nightmare.  The other examples look stupid.  Frilly bunkers with water? 

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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2016, 10:30:29 PM »
 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)


This topic  gets a five smiley from me!


Just love the concept but it's not easy to do it well. Tried to implement it on a few holes at Twisted Dune , just did ok with it . It's difficult to keep the sand hard and firm, making it playable not sloppy. 


Rough hewn courses, and tumbling links styled designs is where it works best, hearkening  to the early links by the sea.  Imitation of such places isn't bad, it's real good. What's more fun ?


Mark hits it out of the park here with his comments , I'm all in with him in how good it can be . When it's not perfect , it's still pretty interesting as a concept .




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2016, 11:48:57 AM »
If such features are meant to mimic beaches then maybe the installation of a wave machine and something to imitate the tide might be useful. Perhaps have beach volleyball, windsurfing and even a fake jaws too! :)
Atb

Chris DeToro

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2016, 04:28:10 PM »
Agreed with Mark--it doesn't look sloppy on the 3rd at Kittansett either.  But this is also a sea/beachside course and it fits perfectly with its surrounds

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2016, 05:26:16 PM »
A course we owned in Florida had a few of them.  Looked great, but an absolute nightmare from a maintenance standpoint.  As pointed out, our lake levels varied quite a bit, and would constantly wash the sand out.  Also, the lakes were filled with algae (not maintained by us) so that stained the sand green, which would later turn black when baked by the sun and would smell terrible. We turned the worst one into a regular bunker, wish we had done it to all of them.

cary lichtenstein

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2016, 07:59:49 PM »
Cool
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Brett Morris

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2016, 08:07:52 PM »
A popular feature used by Greg Norman at several designs in Australia.

Ryan Farrow

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Re: What about sand bunkers that bleed into water?
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2016, 08:42:19 PM »
Not my favorite feature but I thought Mike Strantz pulled them off the best. Here are a few of his at True Blue in Myrtle Beach.










Also here are some from Schmidt-Curley at Bali Hai in Vegas: