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Neil Regan

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If Modern Tech has made some types of shots more difficult, then ...


... What's an architect to do about it ?


    It has been suggested that there are some types of shots that are actually harder to play nowadays than they were with older balls and clubs.
   Which shots ? Hooks and slices ? Gentler fades and draws ?


    I know that in ancient times ( when Pat was young :)  ), a higher handicap golfer could often hit a shot that scratch players would not even try. Indeed, they might react to the very notion like it was Kryptonite. I mean of course a shot such as a 60 yard slice.


    Do you remember how, back in the day, you would find yourself blocked behind a tree or dune, with a strong quartering headwind, and all prudence demanded a tacking approach, and you would say, "I've got this shot". Aim way left, try to hit it straight, and, just like a future Bubba, your ball would turn sharp and ride the wind to glory ? Nowadays, it seems, the more I try to turn it, the straighter it goes. I must aim at the fairway now.


   Is there a way for architecture to actually reward a strongly curved shot, given that it is so easy these days to drop a ball with backspin on a small target immediately beyond a hazard ?
   If so, wouldn't it restore a skill to the game, the ability to turn the ball ?


  I think the answer is yes, but it requires a ball to bounce and roll a significant distance, coming from the proper angle.
A very old concept, I know. But the precision of modern golf needs a different scale for such features than in the old days.


  What examples, old or new, can you give, where a highly accurate straight shot is not as good as a decent curving shot ?




 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 07:50:51 AM by Neil Regan »
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Joe Hancock

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Re: If Modern Tech has made some types of shots more difficult, then ...
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2016, 09:09:30 AM »
Neil,

I feel like I am supposed to have an answer to this, based on our previous experiences and observations of intentional bending shots. (You know the one, and still one of my very favorite moments in golf!)

But, I'm struggling with how to demand a bending shot without:

a) Strategic trees (Oxy-Pat? Sorry, my spell-check changed it from moron  ;D )

b) A lot more width, at the expense of length, without properties needing to be huge

c) Probably the answer....orientation/ contouring/ bunkering, coupled with firm conditions at the green end of the business

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Thomas Dai

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Re: If Modern Tech has made some types of shots more difficult, then ...
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2016, 09:46:30 AM »
A couple of observations -


Modern clubs and balls fly higher with more spin so roll doesn't play the part in golf that it once did (course related factors obviously effect this as well).


The modern ball isn't as easy to 'work' or deliberately curve as the balata/wound ball was, say into a strong sidewind to hold a shot more on line or land a shot softer on a green


Modern sharpe, deep, spiny grooves can be a pain when you wish to play a land-and-release shot as the ball wants to grab and stop quickly rather than roll out.


Graphite shafts are not so good around the greens or on part-shots as they seem to have less 'feel' than steel/hickory (don't ask me to define 'feel' though!)


Wide flange cavity backs are not as playable as narrow flanged clubs of previous generations when playing shots from firm ground.


Wide flanged/high bounce wedges are not so useful from firm sand.


Fades are easier with steel shafts than with hickory. With (whipping) hickory draws and worse are relatively easy.


Thin flanged, vertially no bounce original spec hickory wedge heads are murder to play from soft sand.


Blade putters have small sweat spots and the older they are generally the smaller the sweat spot is. Older putters also have more loft.


BUT...all these developments have also had effects that can be considered beneficial in other ways - some examples being that the modern ball is more durable and doesn't cut or go out of round, clubs, particularly the longer ones, are easier to hit especially for the physically weaker or less skilled player and generally go straighter as well and then there's the sandwedge...


Pro's and Con's and all that.


As to what an architect is supposed to do about it, that's a good question as a deliberately evasive politician would say. I have an inkling what those who control the rules and regulations of the game should do though.


Atb
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 12:40:58 PM by Thomas Dai »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Modern Tech has made some types of shots more difficult, then ...
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2016, 10:01:05 AM »





If Modern Tech has made some types of shots more difficult, then ...


... What's an architect to do about it ?


    It has been suggested that there are some types of shots that are actually harder to play nowadays than they were with older balls and clubs.
   Which shots ? Hooks and slices ? Gentler fades and draws ?


    I know that in ancient times ( when Pat was young :)  ), a higher handicap golfer could often hit a shot that scratch players would not even try. Indeed, they might react to the very notion like it was Kryptonite. I mean of course a shot such as a 60 yard slice.


    Do you remember how, back in the day, you would find yourself blocked behind a tree or dune, with a strong quartering headwind, and all prudence demanded a tacking approach, and you would say, "I've got this shot". Aim way left, try to hit it straight, and, just like a future Bubba, your ball would turn sharp and ride the wind to glory ? Nowadays, it seems, the more I try to turn it, the straighter it goes. I must aim at the fairway now.


   Is there a way for architecture to actually reward a strongly curved shot, given that it is so easy these days to drop a ball with backspin on a small target immediately beyond a hazard ?
   If so, wouldn't it restore a skill to the game, the ability to turn the ball ?


  I think the answer is yes, but it requires a ball to bounce and roll a significant distance, coming from the proper angle.
A very old concept, I know. But the precision of modern golf needs a different scale for such features than in the old days.


  What examples, old or new, can you give, where a highly accurate straight shot is not as good as a decent curving shot ?


Neil,
You cite and excellent example.
Golf courses/organizations, especially those that want to host championships,
want to be perceived as "tests" and it trickles down to the rank and file member.
Sadly. the word "fair" has resulted in so much charm and imagination being removed from design.
On an inland treed site, leaving a few "strategic" trees seems a perfect solution to introduce interest and "test" relative skill; certainly more than importing white Ohio fake sand to an inland site.While trees can compete with fairways for water and nutrients, certainly a select very few are cheaper to keep than maintaining a nest of fake bunkers.


Holes that require curving shots for optimal position are often done away due to unpopularity as a prior thread on GCA will attest. It's a wonderful way to test skill, but increasingly better players only see numbers and yardages, and see little need for shotmaking-other than controlling distance.


Greens with tilt and slope, the simplest way to interject strategy and thought into play, are systematically eliminated due to ever increasing green speeds, combined with softer greens typically associated with such fast greens (to keep them alive)   I truly hate the words "firm and fast" because the fast generally ruins the firm resulting in just fast roll on putts, but slow bounce-negating the effect of tilt (which is usually absent anyway other than level tiers ::) ::)
The fastest playing COURSES I've seen have been in the UK/ireland and the actual stimp meter reading was probably around 9. Firm greens coupled with firm fairways can be accessed by curving the ball around bunkers-especially on holes where the slope of the green is away from the player.
That's something ALL course operators and players should consider when they lean on their super for faster stimp readings.


Additionally, with ever decreasing heights of cut on fairways, canted fairways won't work as the ball simply won't stop until it hits friction-the rough.
A fantastic way to test skill and angles that can be retained/restored by maintaining an appropriate height of cut which will accept a properly shaped shot into the cant yet not be eventually ruined by the inevitable forces of gravity on a nearly frictionless fairway.
Modern courses have of course responded by shaping the tilt and slope out of a fairway to accomodate this which results in less shotmaking skill being required to play off severe sidehill lies as the ball simply doesn't stop on one in a fairway.


Did I mention all of the above are cheaper ways to produce strategy?


Modern tech in many phases of the game has definitely made courses land the game less thought provoking. Frankly I don't think it's any easier-just less interesting



« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 10:13:22 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: If Modern Tech has made some types of shots more difficult, then ...
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2016, 01:40:10 PM »
Neil:


I'm convinced the only thing we architects can do about it is to try and preserve those sorts of situations, and hope that some players are keen enough to recognize the opportunities presented.


As you say, it's sometimes the weaker golfer who is better able to take advantage of certain features, and I think this is to be encouraged. A speed slot that starts 200 yards off the tee is a lot more appealing to me than one which starts at 290, and only enables the long hitter to get even longer.


These features would come back in vogue if golf moves in the direction of balls with higher spin rates ... something that is out of our control as architects, but that we will continue to lobby for.


P.S.  There is nothing wrong with a strategic tree now and again.  Sure, it won't last forever, but I'm starting to realize that neither do bunkers or greens or anything else we build.