[Patrick_Mucci]

didn't catch on ?


We know about the template holes that became popular, but what about the ones that didn't ?


What, architecturally or play wise caused them to remain in the closet ?


The Knoll hole ?

[Nigel Islam]

The obvious one to me is the Biarritz. I think Dye and Langford used holes that fit the Knoll hole pattern.

[Andrew Carr]

The Knoll is such a wonderful hole and seldom used by those three.  I'm currently making the argument (to anyone who will listen) that Emmet created a Knoll at Wheatley Hills (13th.)  Thankfully Ian Andrew is restoring the wonderful quality of that hole (and the rest of the golf course,) which had been lost when Hurdzan/Fry did their bunker work.   I'm also making a point that Emmet did build some other templates at Wheatley (8th - The Short, 10th The Eden.)  I know we don't think of Emmet as part of the Template Crowd, but he also built a wonderful version of The Road at Huntington CC (7th.)


The Knoll (13th) at Piping Rock Club is such a great example that a hole need not be long to be difficult, especially when that back hole location is used.


I agree that the Biarritz is another template that isn't used nearly enough.  I suppose the nickname "Macdonad's Folly," is probably the reason that didn't  catch on...  Coore/Crenshaw did a wonderful job bringing that template to Streamsong.


The Leven also isn't a highly popular template, even though it's one of my favorites at NGLA.


I'm not sure Raynor's Prize Dogleg qualifies as a template, but it is certainly a hole type that isn't well preserved.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,


I don't think there are too many "Horseshoes" like the one at Forsgate:





I'd like to build one here in the desert at my club to replace a terrible par3. 

[Andrew Carr]

Pat,


I don't think there are too many "Horseshoes" like the one at Forsgate:





I'd like to build one here in the desert at my club to replace a terrible par3. 

I agree!  The 5th at Nassau Country Club is a Horseshoe, but there aren't many examples.

[Nigel Islam]

Not a template per se, but I LOVE squared off green edges. Bring em back!

[Ronald Montesano]

From the great unwashed, is there much difference between "Horseshoe" and "Short"? Both share principal features.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

I was always under the impression that a lot of the "Short" holes featured the "Horseshoe" or "Thumbprint." But I could be wrong and they could be two different types of holes, but I do know names of holes tend to get confused over the years.

On the flip side, Elkridge's Biarritz features a Thumbprint in the front of its green.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat,


I don't think there are too many "Horseshoes" like the one at Forsgate:





I'd like to build one here in the desert at my club to replace a terrible par3. 

I agree!  The 5th at Nassau Country Club is a Horseshoe, but there aren't many examples.

Mountain Lake #9 has a super horseshoe / donut. 

[Bill Brightly]

From the great unwashed, is there much difference between "Horseshoe" and "Short"? Both share principal features.

The Horseshoe is always a Short, used primarily by Banks. I don't believe Macdonald ever designed a Horseshoe.

[Andrew Carr]

Raynor built one for the 2nd at Southampton also.

[Tom_Doak]

The Horseshoe is always a Short, used primarily by Banks. I don't believe Macdonald ever designed a Horseshoe.

How's that again?  The Short hole at National is the mother of all horseshoes.  And the 10th at Chicago has it, too, although that version is really Raynor's.  I think several of the other Macdonald greens had the horseshoe "modified" by the superintendent at some point; I know that was done at The Creek and Yeamans Hall.  (We restored the latter.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Brightly,
 
Of all holes, I believe that the Biarritz at The Knoll has the horseshoe feature in the back tier.
 
And, the 3rd hole, the Redan has a spine in the green.

[Bill_McBride]

I haven't seen many "Hogback" holes, probably because it requires such specific terrain. 

[Nigel Islam]

From the great unwashed, is there much difference between "Horseshoe" and "Short"? Both share principal features.

The Horseshoe is always a Short, used primarily by Banks. I don't believe Macdonald ever designed a Horseshoe.

St. Louis CC too

[Nigel Islam]

I haven't seen many "Hogback" holes, probably because it requires such specific terrain.

I'm as big a MacRaynor fan as there is, but can someone explain how the "Hogback" holes have any practical influence on strategy whatsoever?

[Brad Hill]

Bluemound CC has a few of the previously mention templates. While the short and leven aren't uncommon, it does have a rather tame hog's back.


The short 7th has a thumbprint feature resulting in a raised horseshoe around the back of the green. I'm not sure how pronounced it is compared to others. 


The 12th hole is called hog's back, although I'd argue, that only the left side of the landing area falls away as the right side it relatively flat.


The leven 16th.


I'm wondering about Bluemound's 10th, prize. It's basically a long straightforward par 4 modeled after Lido's 6th. According to their website, this prize is modeled after the 3rd place winner and is often the strongest par 4 on SR designs. I'm sure there are other prize templates from the Lido course but are which are most or least replicated?

[Nigel Islam]

Bluemound CC has a few of the previously mention templates. While the short and leven aren't uncommon, it does have a rather tame hog's back.


The short 7th has a thumbprint feature resulting in a raised horseshoe around the back of the green. I'm not sure how pronounced it is compared to others. 


The 12th hole is called hog's back, although I'd argue, that only the left side of the landing area falls away as the right side it relatively flat.


The leven 16th.


I'm wondering about Bluemound's 10th, prize. It's basically a long straightforward par 4 modeled after Lido's 6th. According to their website, this prize is modeled after the 3rd place winner and is often the strongest par 4 on SR designs. I'm sure there are other prize templates from the Lido course but are which are most or least replicated?

I don't believe there are very many remaining prize doglegs. I think the 15th at Shoreacres is one although their holes are not named. I also think the Hog's Back at Blue Mound is a very good hole as is their Short.

[Ronald Montesano]

Fox Chapel's 16th is a Prize Dogleg, although I'm not privy to the extent of the prize.

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