[Anton]

I agree that 3 East at Ridgewood is a great par 5 but I don't think it gets harder the closer you get to the hole. 8 West does due to the slope of the approach:









The approach on 3 East does not really get harder

Bill
Ridgewood has fantastic par 5s on all 3 nines.  I completely agree with you on West 8.  The pressure of each shot steadily mounts the closer you get to the green.  Tee is quite open, the hallway closes more and more on the lay up, and then the approach is just nerve racking.  I always try to lay up in the 125 range so that I have a full shot up to the green aiming just to the right of whatever pin is out that day.  Miss left and you are dead in a bunker.... miss right and you can be stuffed in the rough with a downhill chip (that could easily run right thru the fall away green).  Great hole. 
Anton

[Anton]

My example (and I cannot find my pics from Jax, FL) is the 9th at TPC Sawgrass.  Wide fairway off the tee without much trouble, lay up area that bottlenecks with increasing hazards, and then a difficult approach to a tiny raised target.  Also, that last bend to the left makes the approach so much more interesting.  If you are slightly out of position then the trees and waste area on the left can play a huge factor.  The best angle is had when the lay up is pressed out to the right IMO.   
Also Long Cove's 15th on Hilton Head seemed to play similar.  I haven't played many Pete Dye tracks but noticed this type of par 5 is a staple of his much like the gambling reachable par 5 on each layout.  Keeps it interesting.   

[Michael Felton]

Jim,
Do you disagree with me?  I doubt you do.  Let's take Pine Valley as one example since we both know that course well.  Do you disagree with my point?  How about Winged Foot or Sand Hills or Pebble Beach or Olympic or Crystal Downs or Huntingdon Valley or Brookline or Shinnecock Hills or Merion,..  Need I continue 

Couple of holes jump out at me from this list. 8 at Pine Valley. Pretty easy tee shot. Wedge to the smallest green you've ever seen and if you miss it you're dead. If you hit it it's no picnic either. 1 at Winged Foot West. The fairway is reasonable. Then your approach to the green is quite exacting, especially if you want to get close to the flag. Then once you're on the green, hope you're in the right spot, because from the wrong place, you're going to struggle to make 5.

[Mark_Fine]

Guys,
How many architects actually design holes the other way around where things get easier as you get closer to the hole?  Not many (maybe not any).  Tom Doak, for example, designs holes this way (maybe he will chime in and argue this but I doubt it). Does he also design challenging tee shots, of course he does.  But he also often designs in width and that width is there to create options and temptation to make the next shot possibly a little easier than it otherwise might be.  At the same time he often leaves an easier and more forgiving line off the tee but taking that line invariably leads to a much more challenging next shot or less options as you approach the hole.  This design philosophy is used by nearly all of the great architects and in fact by most every decent architect out there.  Remember the old saying, "A great second shot golf course".  Well name one great golf course that isn't also a great second shot golf course? I can't name one!  Riviera for example is a great driving course but it is also a very demanding second shot course. 

[JESII]

I don't think so Mark. While the target certainly gets smaller as you get closer to the hole, I think the nature of the game is that you have more control as well.


I'm not going to speak for any architects, but from a playing perspective today's flat greens and accommodating green side areas don't really jive with your theory.


Forgetting today's architects for a minute...let's dig into Pine Valley a little.


#15 really is the ultimate example of this concept in my experience but how many of the other holes are?
4 certainly doesn't - very difficult drive. The second shot difficulty reflects the quality of the drive although if it's a short drive and you're laying up it's quite easy. With a great drive down to the bottom, the mid/short iron approach isn't too bad. Cool shot but not overly difficult. Chipping and pitching from short or around the green just doesn't have all that much difficulty.


6 has all sorts of trouble off the tee but once you're in the fairway the approach is pretty easy relative to the length you're left with.


Success on 7 is dependent on a good drive and a good second shot. Tough to screw it up too bad if you've done that. The drive doesn't really provide an option to lay up and while the fairway is far from narrow, the entire fairway isn't usable on the right and you cannot miss it by a foot on the left. Pass the driving test on that hole and you can sort of coast...


Putting is the easy part on 11, 13, 14, 16 and 18...happy to break down those holes with you if you think the drives are easier than the putting/chipping.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,


I think # 4 at PV along with # 2, 9 and 16 at NGLA get easier as you get closer to the hole

[Mark_Fine]

Guys,
There is another old saying about most classic golf courses, "they are defended at the greens".  Many are fairly forgiving off the tee (the width) but the going gets tougher from there in.  This doesn't mean they aren't good driving tests (see my previous comments on width).

As far as Pine Valley goes we can beg to differ.  #1 is a very challenging 2nd shot as is #2.  #4 is a straightaway drive and a difficult 2nd to control the distance to a runaway green.  #6 is the easiest tee shot in the golf course.  #7 is two layup shots followed by a challenging 3rd to get it close.  #8 is one of the scariest wedge shots at PV!  #9 is well balanced.  #11 requires a precise 2nd.  #12 is a gamble hole and all predicated on your risk reward tolarance.  #13 is one of the most demanding 2nd shots on the golf course, #15 is just hard all the way, #16 is all risk reward off the tee and then very challenging to gauge the right weight and roll to another runway green with water right, #17 is another demanding blind wedge shot to a narrow green and #18 is an all carry demanding finish! 

[JESII]

Mark - to take one point of yours...would you say the approach shot or the putting is more difficult on the 18th at Pine Valley? Go with the typical 5 or 6 iron distance in...

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
The putting is challenging on all the holes at Pine Valley, especially if you are above the hole! 

Both shots are hard on #18.  Hitting the green with a six iron might not be too hard but hitting it in the correct spot to have a decent chance chance for a one or two putt is a different matter.  That is the part that is challenging!  You know as well as anyone that hole location translates all the way back to the tee on a well designed golf hole! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark & Jim,


I meant # 2, 9 and 16 at NGLA

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
I wouldn't call the tee shot on #2 hard, I would call it fun and very tempting for most above average players.  The second can be very challenging, for even a short shot as the green tends to run away and long is death. #9 starts with a challenging tee shot but there is plenty of width.  It narrows as you approach the hole but overall just a pretty solid golf hole tee to green.  #16 starts with a wide open tee shot past the 200ish range and then a blind up hill second to the punchbowl.  It might be easy to hit the green but it can take a lot of skill to get it close depending on the hole location.  If someone said to you, which is the easier shot, to hit the fairway off the tee or hit the green from 170 yards, I think most would say hit the fairway as it is about 80 yards across in the prime landing area for most golfers.  And those that can't hit it that far won't reach the green with their second anyway and will have to worry about the cross hazards short of the green. 

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