Thoughts on this...

[Jim Franklin]

A friend of mine recently played Streamsong and did not like it because the walks on some holes was through sand and he found it difficult to walk. Now this guy has played Pine Valley and that is his favorite course. I argues that the walk up #4 at PV was way harder than any walk at Streamsong. Apparently walking though sand at PV was okay, but not at Streamsong. Thoughts?

[Mark Pritchett]

Could the heat/humidity have been a factor? 

[Bill_McBride]

 Streamsong was fine in March, can't imagine walking those courses in the central Florida summer heat and humidity, away from the water.   Really can't imagine playing there in the summer  even in carts!

[Steve Lapper]

Better tell him to avoid Friars Head, Lost Farm, among others.....

[Pete_Pittock]

and the beach. Instead of walking straight ahead I zagged to where the footing was best.

[Jerry Kluger]

I would agree that walking through sand can be tough at times but it is well worth it in order to play the best sand based courses.

[Greg Tallman]

I know the guys at Diamante had an issue with the same and brought in some firmer material (DG) to create paths in many spots. It takes some work to keep them up but they work well and when dusted lightly with sand they blend quite nicely. Of course the firmer material was readily available on the upper areas of the property which I suspect would not be the case at SS. 

[John Kirk]

There tends to be a bias against modern courses.  Severe features, in this case sandy green to tee walks, tend to be criticized at modern courses but deemed acceptable at a classic design.

I had an recent exchange with a member of Waverly GC in Portland, who didn't like a couple of the green complexes at Stone Eagle GC in Palm Desert (where I'm a member).  It took me a while to process thoughts like these, but I realized a few hours later that Waverly has some brutally steep slopes on the green.  Three greens at Waverly (#3, #6 and #11) have a prevailing slope that significantly exceeds any green at Stone Eagle.  Modern greens like those at Stone Eagle tend to feature more internal contouring, so the nature of classic greens tends to be a bit different.  I decided his opinion was primarily a bias against newer courses, and that older classic courses tend to be accepted unconditionally.  It's as if old courses have earned the right to be severe.

Thanks for the subject, so I could post my recent experience.

[Rob Marshall]

There were a few walks at Streamsong Blue where the sand was fairly deep walking up hill. It was like walking up hill on the beach. It may have even been up to the first tee if I remember correctly.

[Bill_McBride]

We have some waste areas at Pensacola CC where you walk from green to tee.  Our greens keeping crew lays down gravel as a path, much better than walking through loose sand. 

[Mike_Young]

If the only negatives he had were walks thru sand then I wouldn't bother trying to please him...

[Jim Franklin]

There tends to be a bias against modern courses.  Severe features, in this case sandy green to tee walks, tend to be criticized at modern courses but deemed acceptable at a classic design.

I had an recent exchange with a member of Waverly GC in Portland, who didn't like a couple of the green complexes at Stone Eagle GC in Palm Desert (where I'm a member).  It took me a while to process thoughts like these, but I realized a few hours later that Waverly has some brutally steep slopes on the green.  Three greens at Waverly (#3, #6 and #11) have a prevailing slope that significantly exceeds any green at Stone Eagle.  Modern greens like those at Stone Eagle tend to feature more internal contouring, so the nature of classic greens tends to be a bit different.  I decided his opinion was primarily a bias against newer courses, and that older classic courses tend to be accepted unconditionally.  It's as if old courses have earned the right to be severe.

Thanks for the subject, so I could post my recent experience.

Glad I could be of assistance. And I agree with your notion that modern courses do not receive the benefit of the doubt.

I do not remember a walk at Streamsong anywhere near as difficult as the walk from 4 tee to 4 fairway at Pine Valley. My friend's response was, "it's Pine Valley". So there you have it, no respect for modern design.

[Jim Tang]

I thought the walk up to the first tee on Blue was pretty brutal.  Other than that, I thought both courses were rather manageable to walk.  Of course, in the summer months, the heat and humidity may make that a very different story.


As already said, if you want to play the best sand based courses, you may actually have to walk on some sand.

[John Kavanaugh]

I even walked Streamsong so I would say it must be easy. As far as the walk to the first tee on the Blue, it didn't start my day off well to be told that is where my caddie was waiting for me. Without my bag that is.

[Mark Pritchett]

I do not remember a walk at Streamsong anywhere near as difficult as the walk from 4 tee to 4 fairway at Pine Valley. My friend's response was, "it's Pine Valley". So there you have it, no respect for modern design.

In all fairness I would expect most people to give the consensus #1 course in the world a bit of a pass.  Your friend likely would have issues with sand walks on say a 75 year municipal course as well. 

[Adam Clayman]

I even walked Streamsong so I would say it must be easy. As far as the walk to the first tee on the Blue, it didn't start my day off well to be told that is where my caddie was waiting for me. Without my bag that is.

My one experience was similar. 
I'd encourage Kemper, and the caddies, to dial back their suggestions to play the back tee, there. Not everyone enjoys a vista tee.

If they want people to get a glimpse of the topography, from 20' higher in elevation, put in a rooftop bar and sell $15 cocktails. Win win. (ok$20)

[John Kavanaugh]

I seem to recall a rooftop bar but it was dark and I wasn't buying.

[Tom_Doak]

I used to walk up to the first tee on the Blue course every morning I was out on the construction site, just to see how tough it was.  I'd get pretty sweaty in the summer months!  I always expected that they would shuttle walking golfers up to the first tee by cart and let them walk from there ... maybe I should bring that up again.


The only other "difficult" walk is from #7 green to #8 tee, and it pretty much had to be there if #7 Blue [and #16 Red] were going to exist.


Honestly, I believe that half these criticisms are just people grasping for some concrete reason to back up that they didn't like the course, without talking about the course itself.  I have no problem that some people prefer the other course, or even that they don't like mine.  I just wish they'd be more straightforward about it.

[George Pazin]

Honestly, I believe that half these criticisms are just people grasping for some concrete reason to back up that they didn't like the course, without talking about the course itself.  I have no problem that some people prefer the other course, or even that they don't like mine.  I just wish they'd be more straightforward about it.

Most people can't even be straightforward with themselves, Tom. To expect it with you, well, you're asking too much from them, unfortunately.


The first part of your observation above is probably true, though.

[Rob Marshall]

I used to walk up to the first tee on the Blue course every morning I was out on the construction site, just to see how tough it was.  I'd get pretty sweaty in the summer months!  I always expected that they would shuttle walking golfers up to the first tee by cart and let them walk from there ... maybe I should bring that up again.


The only other "difficult" walk is from #7 green to #8 tee, and it pretty much had to be there if #7 Blue [and #16 Red] were going to exist.


Honestly, I believe that half these criticisms are just people grasping for some concrete reason to back up that they didn't like the course, without talking about the course itself.  I have no problem that some people prefer the other course, or even that they don't like mine.  I just wish they'd be more straightforward about it.

The walk to the first tee on the blue really is tough but only because of the deep sand. A firmer surface to walk on would help a lot. If the the only complaint is walking thru the sand I'd think you have a winner....I loved the blue and I'm looking forward to the Red in November.