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jimhealey24

Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« on: September 10, 2003, 04:21:01 PM »
I was at the ASGCA site recently and reviewed the list of regular and associate members.  I was a bit astounded to find that many of the more well-known architects are not on the list? Curious what our pro's think of the association and why many of them do not participate?

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2003, 05:02:29 PM »
I'm not an archtect but it is my understanding that the association elects its members- one cannot just join.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Brad Klein

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Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2003, 08:38:09 PM »
The AGCSA has about 150 members. Tom Doak's not a member, nor Mike Strantz, Ben Crenshaw, Ron Garl, Mike Young, David Kidd, Tom Weiskopf, Arnold Palmer Jim Engh, Mike DeVries, Todd Eckenrode. Each for different reasons, including the fact that a few of the above might not have five independent course credits, or they don't bother to apply. A few are more on the order of window dressing designers not fully qualifiued as architects and serve only as glorified consultants. There's an interesting point somewhere here the poster is making, but it's worth explaining. Most of the active designers today are a part of ASGCA.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2003, 08:41:00 PM by Brad Klein »

Neal_Meagher

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Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2003, 09:43:43 PM »
Brad,

Todd Eckenrode is now an associate member.  The others you mention are not and for the reasons you mentioned.
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2003, 02:53:34 AM »
Thanks for the correction on Eckenrode, Neal.

I will say that years ago the ASGCA was more exclusionary, and in the 1950s-1970s more or less allocated the country to different architects by making it almost impossible for a new competitor to join from the territory of an existing member. That stuff has now ended, and while a selective society, not a professional trade organization, the ASGCA is far more inclusive. Its members run the gamut of design philosophy, from Tom Fazio, Rees Jones, Arthur Hills and Bob Lohmann to Jeff Brauer, Robin Nelson, Brian Silva, Bill Coore and Gil Hanse. That's pretty inclusive.

I've encouraged Ron Prichard and Jim Engh to join, but they are simply not joiners by dint of their personal and professional character. Too bad, as they and the ASGCA would benefit from their inclusion - the same with Tom Doak. In addition to the reasoning I gave in a previous post, some are also put off by the relatively high cost of membership, plus the fact (as I understand it) that membership entails attendance at something like 3 of the first 5 annual meetings, a commitment of time and money than can be virtually prohibitive to some architects.

You could make a case that the ASGCA has encouraged a certain style of professionalism modeled on narrowly on landscape architecture and civil engineering. On the other hand, its membership is broader-based in terms of approach than ever before, and its meetings (I've attended more than half a dozen and made presentations at two of them) make a sincere effort at keeping members abreast of business, technical and legal issues that are of interest to all practitioners.

My bet is that there are many ASGCA members who are unacknowledged lurkers on this site. Maybe even on this post!

wsmorrison

Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2003, 06:23:35 AM »
Hasn't there been an issue with the ASGCA where they differentiate between design architects and restoration architects?  The ASGCA had been inclusive of the former and exclusive to the latter?  I understand this mind-set is changing and fellows like Ron Forse and Ron Prichard may now have an opportunity to belong to this organization, one that should represent all areas of golf architecture and not just original design.  

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2003, 07:00:19 AM »
I've spoken with Steve Forrest recently who is the membership chairman for the ASGCA.  You need at least five individual course credits to be considered for membership.  He told me that restorations and even renovations (unless the routing is changed) do not count so some of the people mentioned here will unfortunately not be getting in soon.

I'm guessing people like Crenshaw have no aspiration of being an ASGCA member...but maybe I'm wrong.  Coore, I'm sure, takes all the actual architectural credit for their courses as only one of them can get credit for a golf course toward ASGCA membership.  They can divide it up 50/50 and give each person 9-hole credit but I doubt those guys do that.

Mark

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2003, 10:15:29 AM »
Three different members of the ASGCA have called me within the past year and asked me to apply for membership.  I probably will do so in the next year, although their process does take a bit of time and I'll be exceptionally busy in the next 12 months.

The main thing holding me back at this point isn't the politics; I have a lot of friends in the organization.  I am much more afraid what Kelly Moran will say about my fashion sense if I don a plaid sport coat!

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2003, 11:06:43 AM »
Tom,

So does that mean that the 'sting' of The Confidential Guide has subsided within the ASGCA?

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2003, 04:26:27 PM »
sounds like tom will have to go out and buy a new pair of pants to go with the jacket.  let's hope some one goes with him to pick them out.  of course we are assuming you meet their qualifications for admission.  better not buy the pants just yet.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2003, 10:54:27 PM »
Todd, as I recall, was extremely proud to become an ASGCA member. And, I can report that the ASGCA members who were there to vote on his membership did so with enthusiasm.

The notion that "most" North American golf architects are not ASGCA members certainly is not accurate. There are three categories of non-member practicing architects: (1) those who are not qualified because they do not have enough experience; (2) those who are simply not joiners, and (3) those who are "names" and not actively involved in doing the work to any significant degree.

As more interest is taken in ASGCA by some prominent names (Bill Coore, Gil Hanse, Tom Doak, etc.) everyone benefits. I was particularly happy to read Tom's post a few months back when he first mentioned applying for membership. It is not an easy process, but this is by design and I feel it benefits everyone who attains ASGCA membership.

There may be changes in the renovation and rebuild policy regarding allowable projects for membership, but this cannot happen overnight. I believe the ASGCA understands the importance of transforming existing layouts in preserving and giving new birth to "tired" layouts.

Kelly, what makes you think we wear pants instead of kilts or Bermuda shorts? Have you been sneaking peeks? And, Brad, please do not divulge the true lower body wear of an ASGCA member in full dress. Thanks.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2003, 12:41:59 AM »
Forrest, so that explains why all official ASGCA photo ops have the architects sitting at a table draped with cloth.

Tom, given your wardrobe, I would have thought the red plaid Ross coat would be an improvement.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2003, 12:42:58 AM by Brad Klein »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2003, 01:00:41 AM »
I'm not allowed to answer that.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2003, 01:40:59 AM »
My Haiku For This Thread:

-The Great Tom Doak
-The ASGCA Plaid Jacket
-The Earth's axis turns 2 degrees away from the sun and all life on earth, atomizes itself as the world implodes...........

Everyone, please have a pleasant restful night's sleep!

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why so few architects are ASGCA members?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2003, 11:52:27 PM »
tom u2?
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca