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BCowan

Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2015, 04:03:54 PM »
Maybe golf was founded without carts because they weren't invented at the time.....

"U sure you are not the smartest person in the world?"

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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2015, 04:16:03 PM »
I know logic is probably up there with good spelling and intelligence in the list of things you abhor, so I'll save myself the time in trying to show you that your argument about golf being a game that was meant to be a walking game because it was founded as such, is a ridiculous one.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

BCowan

Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2015, 04:24:51 PM »
I know logic is probably up there with good spelling and intelligence in the list of things you abhor, so I'll save myself the time in trying to show you that your argument about golf being a game that was meant to be a walking game because it was founded as such, is a ridiculous one.

   I'm big on wisdom and humility.  So I'll save myself the time as to you don't really grasp those two words, by I'll try one last time.  Many other games could have been modified by motorized vehicles, but obviously they haven't.  You don't understand "conserving things of value'' and traditions because they make sense.  So those Scots across the pond just walk because they don't want to ruin their fescue fairways  ::) ::) ::)   

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2015, 05:18:43 PM »
There are plenty of arguments one could make in favor of walking vs riding.  The point is, "because it was invented that way" is not one of them.

The scots have embraced plenty of technological advances that have made the game different/easier throughout the years.  In fact, they invented a lot of them....
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2015, 04:17:18 AM »
The majority of golfers that take a cart do it because it makes the "game" more fun for them. If they want exercise they would go to the gym for a "work" out. Golf doesn't have to be work. Do you walk or bike to the golf course because that would be much healthier for you than driving there. Do you play the back tees every time? Why not? Because it is not as much fun as you get older or are not as skilled as required from those set of tees. The point is you have a choice. If you want to just have fun or if
 you want play for your health you should have a choice. If the      owner of Bandon doesnt want carts on his courses that is his    choice. But when you use "public" funding and exclude a majority of the golfing "public" either with high greenfees or walking only restrictions you cant really call it public.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2015, 04:29:53 AM »

   I'm big on wisdom and humility.  So I'll save myself the time as to you don't really grasp those two words, by I'll try one last time.  Many other games could have been modified by motorized vehicles, but obviously they haven't.  You don't understand "conserving things of value'' and traditions because they make sense.  So those Scots across the pond just walk because they don't want to ruin their fescue fairways  ::) ::) ::)


Ben


Sorry to burst your bubble, but if buggies or even the type of single golf scooter you can get, ever comes down in cost to that of a powercaddy you can bet your last dollar that the fairways of Scotland will be full of them. Golf in this country became a game for the masses due to being a reasonable cost (dirt cheap in American terms) and has stayed that way. That's why you don't get caddies or buggies at pretty well every course in Scotland that American and other visitors don't frequent.


It's got bugger all to do with tradition and everything to do with costs.


Niall

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2015, 06:31:08 AM »
Tim,

You wrote, "But when you use "public" funding and exclude a majority of the golfing "public" either with high green fees or walking only restrictions you cant really call it public"

Yet I take you back to Bethpage Black which only allows carts for a few physically handicapped and even this with restrictions as to where they can be driven. The reason? Insurance costs. You see in order to get from the 1st to the 2nd holes you have to cross a very active public Round Swamped Road. Fortunately there is a tunnel underpass at that point.

Very unfortunately there isn't one that allows carts to go from the 14th hole back across the very busy Round Swamp Road to get to the 15th tee. They also haven't a path that can be used to get from the 14th green back over to where the 2nd hole underpass can be reached in a reasonable amount of time that won't cause further hold-ups in play for a course that specializes in them.

Some times there actually may be reasonable explanations for not allowing carts on a public venue. Yet this doesn't prevent those who are handicapped from playing it. One of the last rounds I enjoyed there a few years back one of those who played did so while wearing a prosthetic device on his right leg from above his knee down. He was in shorts & walked... faster than me!

 

Brent Hutto

Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2015, 06:35:42 AM »
It's got bugger all to do with tradition and everything to do with costs.


Which is why I've known for years that my days of being able to play golf walking are numbered. Here in USA the cost is being removed from the golfer's consideration. Of course the carts get paid for one way or another but golf course operators bundle it to obscure the fact it costs more or to an increasing degree just don't offer no-cart golf as an option.


When I started playing 21 years ago I could play (without a cart) at any but a couple of the courses within an hour's drive of my house. Some of them may have required carts at certain times but mostly it was an option. By the end of the 90's it was down to a 50/50 proposition. If I wanted to play on a weekend morning, walking, about half the courses would let me


Nowadays it's more than half the courses will not allow walking at any time and many of the ones which will let me walk will only do so certain days and times. I'd say in another decade it will be down to less than a handful of private clubs and maybe one or two seriously low-end publics, if that. At some point even my 100-year-old private course will no doubt to carts only. After all, the club always needs more money and members pay $20 per round for the cart. Hopefully that day will be 20 years from now by which time maybe I'll be too old to play golf anyway.


As I say, there's still a cost incurred for buying, maintaining, storing and fueling the carts. But when that cost is bundled in to the "green fee" at least 90% of golfers will ride instead of walk. Heck, even when it costs $15 to $20 extra the vast majority will ride. And the true cost must not be much because there are several courses (the ones most struggling to stay afloat) where you can buy a semi-private type membership and for a flat fee of $1,000 to $1,500 per year get unlimited rounds of golf with a (required) cart. That's in a 12-month golf climate, too. I know of lots of retired guy who write that check for $1,400 or whatever it is every January and then play 5-6 days a week using a cart for every round. So obviously the marginal cost of a round in a cart must be in the single digit dollars for those courses.

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2015, 08:11:42 AM »


Municipal golf is pretty hard to justify for me.


Jason - Why is that? Do you feel the same about swimming pools, tennis courts, softball fields and soccer pitches? These are all nice amenities.  I don't think any of these are money makers, but they add to quality of life IMHO and isn't that the goal of the municipal government?

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2015, 09:16:19 AM »
Stewart, to be clear, I'm a fan of municipal golf personally. But when I'm having a discussion with a non-golfer about it, it's hard for me to make a convincing case for it.


Swimming pools, tennis and basketball courts, and baseball, softball, and soccer fields are all far less resource intensive than golf courses. They don't cost much money to build and maintain, relatively speaking. They provide legitimate public health benefits, as people using them are getting real exercise in a setting that's generally very social. Considering that their primary constituency is children, those benefits are especially important. The ROI is through the roof, as they make our neighborhoods healthier, friendlier, safer, and just plain fun.


Municipal golf just doesn't share those same benefits. Courses are expensive to build and maintain. It's a lazy game of leisure when played in carts. For many participants, drinking is just as much a part of the on course experience as putting. It's a less diverse setting and a less youth friendly setting.


Now don't get me wrong. All my favorite hobbies involve booze and leisure. I love municipal golf, but looking at it objectively, it's hard for me to see it as a worthy government expenditure. When non-golfers tell me that they wish the government would get out of the golf business, or that they don't think their tax dollars should go to golf, the only response I can come up with is the one centered on public health benefits and preserving green space. That argument is much more convincing when applied to courses that have a strong walking culture though. To be fair, many municipal courses do. But I don't have any issues with a muni that encourages walking through higher cart prices or other creative policies, provided that they still make them available to players who have a real need for them.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2015, 09:43:45 AM »
About a hundred years ago Dr MacKenzie was a big advocate for municipal golf courses on the basis that golf kept people fit and well and out of his surgery. Given the cost of the NHS in the UK, you could make an argument for more municipal courses to be built. From a planners point of view they also provide valuable green space within built up areas which is a benefit to more than just golfers.


Niall

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2015, 10:04:54 AM »
Carts are offered at just about every municipal course, but unless you are unable due to disability, why would anyone choose that option?  Golf was meant to be a sport and part of that means walking.  If not, wouldn't the pros be using carts, wouldn't colleges be using carts.


The initial question was this:


A "public" course with no cart option is ridiculous.

Do people agree with this?  If so, why?

No, I don't agree with this.  Pebble offers carts, but why would anyone not want to enjoy that walk.  If it is all about money and not the enjoyment of the game, then the above statement is accurate.  I know the goal is to make money, but if it detracts from the basic premise of the game, to participate in a sport of which walking is an integral part, what sport are we playing?  I know plenty of my friends who are neither injured nor old that take carts simply because it allows them to drink more or workout less.  Is that really a good reason to inject carts into golf? In my opinion, No.  Unfortunately, trying to find examples of where carts are not permitted on muni courses, is harder and harder to find.  The masses have spoken and to me the game is hurt by that decision.  Costs go up and for me enjoyment goes down.

This was edited as it did not show what I typed above in my original reply.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 10:41:13 AM by Josh Bills »

Brent Hutto

Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2015, 10:49:50 AM »



The original comment by Tim Leahy is one of the most misinformed & least enlightened comments i"ve ever read on GCA.


Golf is an athletic endeavor, it's a sport that is played on foot throughout most of the world.


That statement reflects the ignorance of American centric overweight golfers.  He would be an ideal Golf Digest panelist but I'm guessing he's not a 5 handicap or less.


Wow. If you're that confused about the role of golf carts, why even bother reading GCA?


Most of the world aside, in many parts of USA cart use is the norm.


And I say this as someone who plays about 112-113 of my 115 rounds every year walking. For me, the game played in a cart is an uncomfortable herky-jerky activity with no flow and little relaxation to it. I'm sure habitual cart riders would find the "flow" of my walking game to be distracting and unpleasant.


But while I love the game afoot I recognize that I'm part of a dying breed. It has just about gotten to the point where as a walker I'm probably being tolerated out of politeness by the 80-90% of my group who ride (not that anyone has ever implied such to me, I play at a VERY friendly and big-hearted club) and there's no reason to pretend I'm playing the "real" game when all but a handful of the people I see on the course everyday believe no such thing.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2015, 03:39:07 PM »
Misinformed and unenlightened is a perfect description of you Bill if you believe you have a better grasp of GCA because you walk the course rather than take a cart.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2015, 06:51:07 PM »
Every year I play in a bar golf (Cuneen's, a great bar on Devon) tournament at Robert Black Golf Course, a municipal course that I think has 2 carts.  It is a par 33 or 34, terrible conditioning (it floods and crabgrass takes  over some fairways.  Hardly any sand in the bunkers.  But the bones are good.  It was a country club that got eminent domained. 

Every day the tee sheet is filled by walkers.  In the US.  Old timers with push/pull carts.  Kids with bags over the shoulder. 

A course made for walking, with water fountains and benches on tees will attract walkers. 
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Sam Morrow

Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2015, 07:52:01 PM »
It would be cool if this site could be civil.

Jon Byron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2015, 08:02:45 PM »
Carts destroy golf. "Cartball" is not golf
Haven't played since yesterday, not playing until tomorrow, hardly playing at all!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2015, 08:07:01 PM »
In one of the Chambers Bay threads, this statement was made:
A "public" course with no cart option is ridiculous.
Do people agree with this?  If so, why?


This is an attempt to label the Bandon Resort ridiculous. Is the Bandon Resort ridiculous?

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2015, 02:28:36 AM »
Misinformed and unenlightened is a perfect description of you Bill if you believe you have a better grasp of GCA because you walk the course rather than take a cart.
I'm afraid my bullshit alarm just went off.  Given that walking is an important part of golf, which it is, then how a golf course walks is an important part of GCA.  It follows that it is inevitable that you get a better grasp if you walk.


When did you last walk a golf course?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2015, 02:51:11 AM »
Mark, placement of cart paths is an important part of modern GCA.  When was the last time you drove a cart with your eyes open and didnt have a warm beer in your hand?
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts New
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2015, 06:23:43 PM »
"The majority of golfers that take a cart do it because it makes the "game" more fun for them. If they want exercise they would go to the gym for a "work" out. Golf doesn't have to be work. Do you walk or bike to the golf course because that would be much healthier for you than driving there. Do you play the back tees every time? Why not? Because it is not as much fun as you get older or are not as skilled as required from those set of tees. The point is you have a choice. If you want to just have fun or if you want play for your health you should have a choice. If the      owner of Bandon doesnt want carts on his courses that is his    choice. But when you use "public" funding and exclude a majority of the golfing "public" either with high greenfees or walking only restrictions you cant really call it public."
[/color]Nice post Tim; it IS about having fun and choice in just how to have that fun. And I'll add (as I do whenever this topic area is refreshed) that the cart (and the public-muni golf that embraces it) is only behind the Haskell ball and the steel shaft as significant points of its biographical prosperity... as to one of the reasons why it didn't recede into a upper-crust, unseen niche, like lawn croquet or polo."every jean-short wearing redneck in the county to drop $30 to plop his fat ass down on some vinyl and sip a Miller Lite as he drives on top of every bunker lip while searching for his Slazenger, stopping only to take a leak on the lone fir."JT? There's poster's license to turn a phrase, but this is...I don't know what this is...but even if your Jack Rednicklaus existed...screw you...why can't he have his fun too?...this mythical "DustyLeague-a-sauraus" doesn't play any public courses of architectural merit or stature...he and his band of rogues have not compromised some once-fine track with their motorings... What? I've got to have the ghost of Allain Robertson and golf's noble traditions on my mind with every blessed shot I take...please. And yes, if motorized carts had been invented 100 years earlier, you can bet that one of these great old Scots traditions would've been to crash your cart into the Swilcan Bridge, loaded to the rafters on claret and other strong medicinesSo all you walkers...walk if you like...you don't have to play with us and we don't have to play with you...but if, in any community, we are BOTH paying for a facility to be built for BOTH our use, then it is just as legitimate that the course be CARTS ONLY, as it is to be WALKING ONLY....The answer to our dispute? As it is in most places, both are available.Which finally brings us back to the only germ of GCA in this topic...how well or poorly carts are integrated into the course and property in question. And as far as public or muni golf, the market does sort that out; if some day such forces decide to pick up a flagging revenue, carts will appear at Chambers Bay.cheersvk
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 03:31:02 AM by V. Kmetz »
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2015, 06:27:02 PM »
"The majority of golfers that take a cart do it because it makes the "game" more fun for them. If they want exercise they would go to the gym for a "work" out. Golf doesn't have to be work. Do you walk or bike to the golf course because that would be much healthier for you than driving there. Do you play the back tees every time? Why not? Because it is not as much fun as you get older or are not as skilled as required from those set of tees. The point is you have a choice. If you want to just have fun or if you want play for your health you should have a choice. If the      owner of Bandon doesnt want carts on his courses that is his    choice. But when you use "public" funding and exclude a majority of the golfing "public" either with high greenfees or walking only restrictions you cant really call it public."
Nice post Tim; it IS about having fun and choice in just how to have that fun. And I'll add (as I do whenever this topic area is refreshed) that the cart (and the public-muni golf that embraces it) is only behind the Haskell ball and the steel shaft as significant points of its biographical prosperity... as to one of the reasons why it didn't recede into a upper-crust, unseen niche, like lawn croquet or polo."every jean-short wearing redneck in the county to drop $30 to plop his fat ass down on some vinyl and sip a Miller Lite as he drives on top of every bunker lip while searching for his Slazenger, stopping only to take a leak on the lone fir."JT? There's poster's license to turn a phrase, but this is...I don't know what this is...but even if your Jack Rednicklaus existed...screw you...why can't he have his fun too?...this mythical "DustyLeague-a-sauraus" doesn't play any public courses of architectural merit or stature...he and his band of rogues have not compromised some once-fine track with their motorings... What? I've got to have the ghost of Allain Robertson and golf's noble traditions on my mind with every blessed shot I take...please. And yes, if motorized carts had been invented 100 years earlier, you can bet that one of these great old Scots traditions would've been to crash your cart into the Swilcan Bridge, loaded to the rafters on claret and other strong medicinesSo all you walkers...walk if you like...you don't have to play with us and we don't have to play with you...but if, in any community, we are BOTH paying for a facility to be built for BOTH our use, then it is just as legitimate that the course be CARTS ONLY, as it is to be WALKING ONLY....The answer to our dispute? As it is in most places, both are available.Which finally brings us back to the only germ of GCA in this topic...how well or poorly carts are integrated into the course and property in question. And as far as public or muni golf, the market does sort that out; if some day such forces decide to pick up a flagging revenue, carts will appear at Chambers Bay.cheersvk

+1

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2015, 06:36:51 PM »
How about training caddies not to be such dicks. At Streamsong Blue my caddie waited for me at the first tee, on top of the hill, without my bag. At Pinehurst my caddie gave me yardages from the same GPS watch I was wearing. I pay for carts not so much for the ride as much as not having to pay a caddie. Resort caddies are a last resort.

BCowan

Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2015, 08:05:52 PM »
How about training caddies not to be such dicks. At Streamsong Blue my caddie waited for me at the first tee, on top of the hill, without my bag. At Pinehurst my caddie gave me yardages from the same GPS watch I was wearing. I pay for carts not so much for the ride as much as not having to pay a caddie. Resort caddies are a last resort.

Jakab,

    I'm not certain but you do not have to take a caddie at Streamsong.  They have trolleys. 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Public courses without carts
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2015, 08:12:40 PM »
I doos what my host doos. It was a caddie kind of trip.

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