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Pete Blaisdell

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NCAA'S at Concession Club
« on: May 08, 2015, 08:49:47 AM »
Good morning, it's a beautiful day in New Hampshire.

My fellow GCA brother, Chris Cupid, and I will be officiating at the NCAA Division One Championships (Team & Individual ) at the end of the month at the Concession Club in Bradenton, Florida.I know zip about the course and I could use some insight from my learned GCA'S about what to expect.

Would appreciate any advice and/or knowledge that you could pass on.

Much appreciated.
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

Stephen Pellegrino

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2015, 08:47:38 AM »
I cannot say that I have any firsthand knowledge about Concession, but this thread seems a good place to weigh in about the NCAA's. To me, it felt like the NCAA stumbled onto a pot of gold last year. Playing on a seldom seen, architecturally significant, visually appealing course (Prairie Dunes), the buzz around that tournament was unlike any NCAA that I can think of. Viewers not only crawled out the woodwork, they crowed about watching it. And whether they were swing nuts, golf junkies or architecture wonks, they all raved about one particular aspect of the tournament - the golf course.

This got me thinking that the NCAA has a real opportunity here. There are a host of architecturally significant courses that just cannot/will not host a professional tournament or a US Amateur.  Why wouldn't the NCAA aim to recreate the buzz that they had last year and take their championship to one of these iconic pieces of design?  True that they have been to places like Riviera and Inverness in the recent past, but professional golf has exposed these courses to the point where they provide little mystery. Why wouldn't the NCAA try to take their tournament to places like Yale, Pasatiempo, Streamsong, Myopia, Friars Head, Garden City, Ekwanok, Yeamans, The Creek, or some such track? I'm thinking there's gold in them there hills...
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 08:49:32 AM by SPellegrino »

Chris Cupit

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2015, 02:03:35 PM »
Looking forward to seeing you at The Concession Pete!  Headed to Chapel Hill next week for the regional first though.  Are you at Yale next week?

Anyway, I'd love to hear more about The Concession too if anyone can chime in.

To SP's point I agree that the NCAA should continue have more and more terrific options when it comes to golf courses.  And, last year's Championship at Prairie Dunes was truly outstanding.

However we have to remember that these facilties have to want to host these events.  They are hosting 150 golfers, coaches, families, friends and volunteers and the infrastrucrture demands , while not like a tour event, are still considerable.  TV coverage is a bigger and bigger part today too, (which is great and thank you GolfChannel) and they have space needs as well.

Sadly, many of the great courses don't have the space available to host this week long event--practice rounds, three days of stroke play and then two or three days of match play.   Of those courses in your list, the course at Yale certainly gets my vote and I would love to see the Championship there one day.  Actually every course on your list would be a great course to play.

As great as last year at Prairie Dunes was, the only possible issue (and it had nothing to do with the golf) was the availability of off-site facilties for everyone.  There just were not many hotels and/or restaurants available and that does play a role in site selection.

As an example, the US AMateur at AAC last year was a facility with a nice and certainly servicable set of golf courses but it is the facilities that are "over the top" fantastic combined with a large membership extemely desirous of national events--that is what carries the day for site selection and I get it. 

We all would love to see championships on architecturally interesting sites but the "best course alone" simply can't carry the day as the championships and the expectations of those involved continue to grow.  Also, the commitment and sacrifice for the Members to host an NCAA D-I Championship is not insignificant.

The course were I belong was created specifically to honor amateur golf and host championships and it means giving up your course for a while and most likely, a financial commitment as well, to ensure your guests have a great experience.  AT many clubs, especially ones whose purpose is not specifically to host events, that can be upsetting to a large group of the membership.

I love my volunteer work as I get to see great competitors very often on some of the most interesting and great courses in the world.  I would gladly "suffer" with lesser facilities (A hot shower and bed are all I need after work) and a great course but that just isn't the view of most people and frankly, I understand.  As long as the greens are "perfect  ???", rolling 12 and very smooth, the rest of the course in in nice shape, the players don't really care about architecture.  As long as the course is "fair" they are happy--which for them usually means long, boring, lush, green, predictable and immaculate. 

After that is satisified for the course (and all the courses they play today do accomplish that goal) it is all about the facilities and "extras" the hosts offer.

Jeff Tang

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2015, 02:49:40 PM »
I had an opportunity to play Concession about three years ago. I was pleasantly surprised and really enjoyed the course. The conditioning at that time (played it in Februrary) was firm and the ball bounced and rolled out. The course was very challenging from the tee but I thought strategic as well. The greens were firm and quick and up and downs were tough due to some pretty good slope on the greens. I'm looking forward to seeing more of the course on TV.
So bad it's good!

Steve_ Shaffer

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill_McBride

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2015, 07:34:36 PM »
From that photo tour my first impression was, why do all the greens alike?

Bill Brightly

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2015, 07:41:06 PM »
This is probably a great place to host the NCAA's, Concession is a really tough test of golf for scratch or better players. I played it in March and it was simply too much for this 5 handicap. (No, I did not play the tips.) The greens are very cool. Most have distinct sections and missing the proper section will lead to a three putt or worse: you can easily run off the green into deep collection areas where recovery shots are brutally hard. I also found the tee shots to be extremely hard. Many had an obvious main hazard to avoid like water or a cavernous bunker, but the safe "bail out" side was also bunkered, forcing you to take on a piece of the main hazard.

Benjamin Litman

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2015, 10:43:29 AM »
Reflective of Bill's post are the scores so far at the ongoing women's NCAA championship. Here is the Golf Channel article documenting the carnage: http://www.golfchannel.com/news/ryan-lavner/ncaa-womens-championship-golf-course-winning/

For those who have played the course, does this strike you as an issue in setup or design? If the latter, are super-hard courses fine as long as they still identify the best players?
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2015, 12:10:52 PM »
I would call Concession a super hard golf course. Take a look at the scorecard:

http://clubsg.skygolf.com/courses/scorecard.php?id=27910

The women are playing at about 6400y. The rating/slope is 72.7/146  Even from 5937y it's 69.6/137. I presume  tees are mixed. Factor in weather and that's why scores are high. Perhaps it's better as a match play course.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mac Plumart

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2015, 01:45:25 PM »
I've played The Concession once. Scored well, played well, and really loved it.

A few years later Mark Saltzman played it and we discussed it. During our conversation, he asked a great question. He asked me "How was your short game that day?"  To be frank, I was having a really good all-around short game day. His point was that if you aren't precise with you chips, pitches, wedges, and short irons you could be in for a long day. He is probably spot on.

Off the tee, you could avoid trouble and avoid taking on the course If you didn't want to. But you'll have to eventually get the ball close to the hole. If your short game isn't sharp, The Concession might crush you.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2015, 09:31:56 PM »
Watching it on tv right now and loving it. I'm a fan of The Concession.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Scott Weersing

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2015, 01:17:07 PM »
So should the NCAA's go to GCA significant courses?

They are in 2016 with Eugene CC hosting both the men and women. I wonder if Oregon can make it through and advance to their home course.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/college-central/eugene-cc-rich-harvest-farms-host-2016-17-ncaas/

And then Rich Harvest Farms will host the NCAA's in 2017.

I think the key is an area with good weather in May and enough infrastructure.

So which private course should make a bid or offer their course for 2018?

It could be a home course for a college.

The men have played some GCA courses in the past with Riveria, Inverness, Honors Course, Karsten Creek, Golden Horseshoe, The Homestead.

David_Tepper

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Tom_Doak

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2015, 01:34:51 PM »
Course set up run amock?

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2015/5/24/setup-run-amok-files-ncaa-womens-finals-at-concession.html

It's just a hard course for the women, regardless of the set-up.  It was built right after Sebonack and there are a lot of interior green contours, so it puts a lot of pressure on the short game no matter what tees you use.  I'd guess that is even tougher for the women to overcome than for the guys.

I did note that the Texas Tech team, ranked 17th coming into the event, qualified for match play.  Good for them!  I'm guessing they are more used to "unfair" greens contours than some of the other teams.

RKoehn

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2015, 03:09:28 PM »
Probably also has something to do with the fact that so many of the best women players turn pro at a very young age, foregoing college in part or entirely.  Women can often be seen playing in professional tournaments as teenagers while men seem to normally play 3-4 years in college.  A generalization, yes, and definitely not true in all cases, however I think this is a factor.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 03:13:41 PM by RKoehn »

Bill Brightly

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2015, 03:44:51 PM »
Course set up run amock?

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2015/5/24/setup-run-amok-files-ncaa-womens-finals-at-concession.html

It's just a hard course for the women, regardless of the set-up.  It was built right after Sebonack and there are a lot of interior green contours, so it puts a lot of pressure on the short game no matter what tees you use.  I'd guess that is even tougher for the women to overcome than for the guys.

I did note that the Texas Tech team, ranked 17th coming into the event, qualified for match play.  Good for them!  I'm guessing they are more used to "unfair" greens contours than some of the other teams.

As Tom suggests, some of the short game recovery shots can be brutally hard. A really fine player who is straight and hits a lot of greens can do well but a player who is a good scrambler and relies on a high number of recoveries in a normal round (like me...) will really struggle in medal play. Here's the approach to the 9th green. Note that there is a section of green to the left of the greenside bunker, separated from the right half of the green by a high spine. The pin was left when I played it. My high cut to the center of the green was about 5 yards too long, the ball rolled over and down into a DEEP collection area which can't be seen in this photo. My high flop was almost perfect, just a yard short and back down the slope. My next one was pretty good, but rolled downhill and off the green to another collection area on the left side. Pitch from there was reasonable but I missed the putt and walked away with 7.

 

JStewart

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2015, 09:23:46 PM »
Has anyone played both Concession and Old Corkscrew about 90 minutes south in Estero? I'd be curious as to how they compare.

OCGC was built around the same time (also by Nicklaus), is extremely difficult, and is a non-stereotypical Florida course in that every hole isn't lined by homes/condos. I've played the latter a bunch but haven't made it up to Concession yet.

Aaron McMaster

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2015, 10:10:29 PM »
Has anyone played both Concession and Old Corkscrew about 90 minutes south in Estero? I'd be curious as to how they compare.

OCGC was built around the same time (also by Nicklaus), is extremely difficult, and is a non-stereotypical Florida course in that every hole isn't lined by homes/condos. I've played the latter a bunch but haven't made it up to Concession yet.

I've played both.....They spent the last year stripping and softening all the greens at Concession if that tells you anything about the difficulty of the place.  I felt it was more difficult than OCGC but they are similar.  The driving is easier at Concession but the greens are much quicker than OCGC so your short game needs to be tight or it could be a long day.  Personally, I think Nicklaus built contours that should've been on greens two or three times the size of what they are at Concession then it would be more enjoyable to play and still an excellent challenge. 

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2015, 07:56:58 PM »
Stanford Women win behind the great play of Mariah Stackhouse. Quite a Resume:

http://www.gostanford.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=208166637
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Rich Goodale

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2015, 12:44:30 AM »
I have no complaints about the course.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gatKjUgcOhA
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

mike_beene

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2015, 12:50:47 AM »
It is encouraging that the golf and course we're compelling enough that my Stanford brother in law and niece are crowing about their superiority to my Bears. At least people noticed the tournament.

Mark Pritchett

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2015, 09:24:21 AM »
Course set up run amock?

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2015/5/24/setup-run-amok-files-ncaa-womens-finals-at-concession.html


I did note that the Texas Tech team, ranked 17th coming into the event, qualified for match play.  Good for them!  I'm guessing they are more used to "unfair" greens contours than some of the other teams.

In an interview on the Golf Channel last night the Texas Tech men's golf coach mentioned his players would feel comfortable on the Concession course because it reminds them a lot of the Rawls course. 

Andrew Buck

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Re: NCAA'S at Concession Club
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2015, 09:53:31 AM »
I heard an interview with Mike Small indicating that the greens have been "toned down" quite a bit since they played it 2 years ago removing some of the severity. 

How much was done to the greens?