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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good par-5?
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2015, 02:01:55 AM »
 The architect has to get a load right to make it good and nearly pull off a miracle to make it memorable.  

Sean, I agree with the first part of this sentence, but not the last. I think it might be as simple as the architect "saving" some of the more interesting parts of the property for his par fives, rather than using all the most dramatic pieces for par threes and par fours.

I've tried to show how well Tillinghast did this at Ridgewood (4 of his 5 par fives over 27 holes are superb golf holes) and he did the same on 17 and 18 at Baltustrol Lower. (Although the two preceeding par fives at Baltustrol are just average, IMO.)

I do think it is much harder to build really good par fives, so perhaps analyzing par fives is a great way to measure the overall quality of the architect's work.


Bill

I had this conversation with someone else (or maybe it was you).  I think my threshold for 5s is quite low.  Being a huge fan of small footprint courses short on yardage, par 5s don't fit my scheme of favourite golf very well.  Perhaps I became more a fan of shorter courses over the years after realizing the most 5s aren't very good or interesting holes...just seems like a way to unnecessarily boost course length.  I have said it before, but I would much rather see an archie get creative with holes between 450ish and 500ish tops rather than having four out n' out 5s of 500+ yards.  My biggest problem with with stretching yardage out is I don't think the yardage range from 100 to 500 is properly explored...its a sacrifice of design I don't care for.  In my experience, 18 holes are rarely enough to cover the spectrum from 100 to 600 yards.  The 100-120, 250-300 and 440-475 range is often ignored or not available on the same set of tees.  Pity that.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 02:06:45 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good par-5?
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2015, 05:06:05 AM »
What makes a par 5 different is the fact that the green can be hit in regulation having struck a second shot short of it.  The possibility of setting up a two putt birdie by going for the green in two is one thing that can make a par 5 interesting, but there needs to be some risk associated with that choice.  It's a bad  (or at least unmemorable) par 5 where the result of a poorly executed attempt to reach in 2 shots is an easy pitch on.  It's also a poor par 5 where there's no interest in the lay up shot.  On a reachable par 5 that lay up should be significantly less dangerous than going for the green in two but it should still offer interest, which more often than not involves asking questions by offering options.  Hazards in the likely lay-up area can be one way of doing this.

I think the 3 par 5s at Muirfield are a great example of par 5s that ask questions on all shots.  Each is reachable in 2 for elite golfers, the 9th is reachable for most in favourable conditions but each has a challenging drive.  Each asks questions on the 2nd shot (there's a bunker on the left just about where most golfers might play their lay up on 5, there's OOB on 9 on the left, which is where you want to come in from, there are fearsome cross bunkers to decide whether to carry on 17).  5 has a much more interesting green than 9 or 17 but is probably easier to hit.  9 can be a brute into the prevailing wind and 17 may well be the best of the three.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good par-5?
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2015, 10:09:48 AM »
Hiya,

I think a good long hole (I hate saying par 5 as I believe every golf hole is a solution of 4) is one that presents unique strategic problems/solutions for both the golfer who can reach the green in 2, and the one who plays it in 3.

The best par 5 I have played is #4 Bethpage Black.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good par-5?
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2015, 10:22:27 AM »
Hiya,

I think a good long hole (I hate saying par 5 as I believe every golf hole is a solution of 4) is one that presents unique strategic problems/solutions for both the golfer who can reach the green in 2, and the one who plays it in 3.

The best par 5 I have played is #4 Bethpage Black.

cheers

vk

VK,I agree with you. Is there any way to accomplish those unique strategic problems/solutions other than the green and surround?

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good par-5?
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2015, 12:31:27 PM »
I always like playing a course with variety in the Par 5s...  where at least 1 Par 5 is reachable in 2, and at least 1 is not reachable.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good par-5?
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2015, 03:36:30 PM »
JME

I think its unavoidable that the location of the ultimate target (the green surrounds you mention) play a large part in the governance of a "par 5" (any hole) being stimulating for both classes of golfer.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good par-5?
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2015, 03:41:56 PM »
Do folk reckon a par-5 should get more difficult the nearer one gets to the green/pin location? Just wondering.
Atb