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MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« on: March 30, 2015, 07:10:31 PM »
On a separate thread, there is a mention that the Tour promotes green speeds of 12+.

This is not my experience [which is very limited]. In my experience the Tour requests green speeds of 10-10.5, favoring consistency in speed across all tournaments. In fact, in the example I know the Tour asked the club to slow down the greens from past pro and member tournaments to 10.5. I further understand only a limited amount of tournaments get to have faster greens for their PGA events, such as the Memorial.

Is all this right? Any experience from supers about their courses for PGA Tour, Web.com, Canadian PGA Tour or Latinoamerica PGA?




JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2015, 10:15:04 PM »
MC,


I think 10 - 10.5 is on the low end of what the Tour aims for but I agree that they rarely get above 12...

 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2015, 03:24:14 AM »
I suspect even for the tour it is a case of getting the balance right. Too fast could become as bad as too slow from a spectator point of view.
I would have thought 10 to 11 would be good for most PGA Tour events

Jon

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2015, 10:46:01 AM »
Marcos,
In the mid 80īs when I was Super at a course with a PGATour event, they wanted 10 to 10.5 for the first couple of days and if the forcast was for wind then to leave them at that speed but if the weather was good, going up to eleven or 11.5 was not a problema. We had them at 12 the first year the week before and they asked me to single cut to drop the speed. In the year 2000 for the World Cup, it was pretty much the same. The PGA Latin America and the web.com here in Chile are still in this range. It seems they want to control the normal tournaments to put more spot light on the increased speeds during majors and a few other select tournaments.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2015, 12:34:35 PM »
Which is worse: a) big-time clubs pushing their green speeds to 11+ because their memberships think the Tour plays at speeds like that, or b) big-time clubs pushing green speeds to 11+ in order to claim "our greens are faster than the Tour plays!"?
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2015, 02:10:56 PM »
Which is worse: a) big-time clubs pushing their green speeds to 11+ because their memberships think the Tour plays at speeds like that, or b) big-time clubs pushing green speeds to 11+ in order to claim "our greens are faster than the Tour plays!"?
Itīs a tie, therefore both lose!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2015, 03:36:11 PM »
The course that matters most for green speed is the neighboring club ... everyone tries to be a bit faster than the neighbor.  Which is a shame, because everyone would have more fun if the greens at neighboring courses were all the same speed.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2015, 05:01:32 PM »
Marcos,
In the mid 80īs when I was Super at a course with a PGATour event, they wanted 10 to 10.5 for the first couple of days and if the forcast was for wind then to leave them at that speed but if the weather was good, going up to eleven or 11.5 was not a problema. We had them at 12 the first year the week before and they asked me to single cut to drop the speed. In the year 2000 for the World Cup, it was pretty much the same. The PGA Latin America and the web.com here in Chile are still in this range. It seems they want to control the normal tournaments to put more spot light on the increased speeds during majors and a few other select tournaments.

Randy, given our site is normally windy, I guess it is consistent with what you say and they asked us to keep it at 10-10.5.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2015, 05:05:05 PM »
Which is worse: a) big-time clubs pushing their green speeds to 11+ because their memberships think the Tour plays at speeds like that, or b) big-time clubs pushing green speeds to 11+ in order to claim "our greens are faster than the Tour plays!"?

Agreed. This is why I asked the question. At least to set the record straight on regular tour green speeds so there is less of a push to faster greens. Although I am not adverse to fast greens if they get there with sound and sustainable practices and if the design allows for it.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2015, 07:55:17 PM »
The course that matters most for green speed is the neighboring club ... everyone tries to be a bit faster than the neighbor.  Which is a shame, because everyone would have more fun if the greens at neighboring courses were all the same speed.

I'm going to disagree to a point on that one.
Golf courses should not be all the same, the same as greens should not be all the same speed.
There should be long courses and short courses, tight and wide.
fast greens and slow greens etc..

In my fantasy world a club would have greenspeeds that under ideal conditions matched the contours and allowed/encouraged firmness, thus creating the importance of angles.

Let's say altering any green contours  ::) ::)was off the table.

Three hypothetical clubs with greens prepared as fast as possible for them to be "playable"
Club A, designed in the dark ages of 2013 would have an average stimp of 12 amped to 13.5 for big events when conditions allowed.
Club B, designed in 1925 would have an average stimp of 9 amped to 10.5 for big events when conditions allowed.
Club C, designed in 2016 would have an average stimp of 9.5, amped to 11 for big events when conditions allowed.

Clubs B and C would look down their noses at the dark ages club when they found out that Club A had to run their flattish, tiered greens at 13 to provide any interest, and the assumption would be that they provided a less interesting surface and puzzle to be solved due to the relative lack of contour and smaller variance between uphill strokes and downhill strokes.
 ;D ;D ;D
and they would snootily smirk that Club A had never had an interesting pin in its entire history. ;) ;D
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 08:04:29 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2015, 06:50:20 AM »
From '80 to '82, I was GCS at a PGA Tour event played on overseeded bermudagrass in Florida. I don't remember exactly what the stimps were, but I'm pretty sure they weren't more than 9'. I don't recall anyone complaining about the speed.

In 2010, I was GCS at A European Tour event, now on bent/Poa greens, and the Tour officials requested the speeds be between 10'-10'6". We could have easily gone faster.

In both cases, though, the overiding concern was for consistency, that the speed be consistent from green to green and from day to day. Both Tours wanted the same speed - whatever it was - throughout the week, from the Monday practice round to Sunday.

I find it curious that in Randy's experience they were altering speeds through the week. Maybe that's an antipodal thing.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2015, 08:56:00 AM »
From '80 to '82, I was GCS at a PGA Tour event played on overseeded bermudagrass in Florida. I don't remember exactly what the stimps were, but I'm pretty sure they weren't more than 9'. I don't recall anyone complaining about the speed.

In 2010, I was GCS at A European Tour event, now on bent/Poa greens, and the Tour officials requested the speeds be between 10'-10'6". We could have easily gone faster.

In both cases, though, the overiding concern was for consistency, that the speed be consistent from green to green and from day to day. Both Tours wanted the same speed - whatever it was - throughout the week, from the Monday practice round to Sunday.

I find it curious that in Randy's experience they were altering speeds through the week. Maybe that's an antipodal thing.
They shut off the wáter, so as they went from firm to semi baked the speed increases. I have always seem a difference between Thursday and Sunday.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2015, 09:05:17 AM »
From '80 to '82, I was GCS at a PGA Tour event played on overseeded bermudagrass in Florida. I don't remember exactly what the stimps were, but I'm pretty sure they weren't more than 9'. I don't recall anyone complaining about the speed.

In 2010, I was GCS at A European Tour event, now on bent/Poa greens, and the Tour officials requested the speeds be between 10'-10'6". We could have easily gone faster.

In both cases, though, the overiding concern was for consistency, that the speed be consistent from green to green and from day to day. Both Tours wanted the same speed - whatever it was - throughout the week, from the Monday practice round to Sunday.

I find it curious that in Randy's experience they were altering speeds through the week. Maybe that's an antipodal thing.

Antipodal?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ben Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2015, 09:44:32 AM »
For our last Tournament the brief was 11.5 as this was considered optimum for the contours we have. As Steve mentions the aim is to keep this speed from first practice to Sunday. Varying cutting and rolling accordingly.
The first year we averaged around 11 and according to a certain golfer who may or may not play anytime soon this was slow

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2015, 11:00:13 AM »


I find it curious that in Randy's experience they were altering speeds through the week. Maybe that's an antipodal thing.

Antipodal?
[/quote]

Yes, referring to the southern hemisphere, as in, the Quirimbas islands form an antipodal archipelago.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Speeds: PGA Tour
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2015, 12:02:24 PM »
Ah, we normally use the word to refer to Australasia and obviously Randy is in South America.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.