[Josh Smith]

I know H. Chandler Egan used models.  Who else?  Does anyone still use handmade clay or plastic type models to depict design ideas?

If so, is it just to base an idea or brainstorm and then a rough sketch is created.  Or would you actually show the operator?

I got to design a green for a 160 yard backyard par three a few years back and since I wasn't going to be there for the "rough in" and making sure dirt was appropriated in right quantity, it made most sense to make a clay model.  The operator broke it in 2 by the next time I came back, who knows maybe because he thought it was such a goofy arcane idea.  . But he had never built anything, so I had to try to get him further faster.

The whole reason I ask...I came upon "Kinetic Sand" at the art store this week and figured having a bit of it at your office to brainstorm and convey ideas seemed like a cool idea.  Its kind of like sand silly puddy.  I made a green and bunker with it at the sample at check out stand.  Doesn't stick to your hands, no cleanup necessary.
 
If you think this is brilliant and this idea works for you and you start designing Doak 10's,  just name your signature hole after me.  

Josh

http://vimeo.com/3455358

[Neil_Crafter]

Josh, quite a few architects used plasticene models in the early days, including Mackenzie, Simpson and Fowler. There have been threads on this topic.

Had a look at this Kinetic Sand on a YouTube video, looks interesting, wonder if it would hold its shape for bunkers and mounds etc?

[Josh Smith]

Thanks Neil.  The sand really does stick together when packed.  Its cool stuff.  Now I remember some of the other greats used them, thanks for the reshresher.
Is anyone using them these days that you know of?

Josh

[Joshua Pettit]

No. 2,

I've been thinking a lot lately about how much I miss building models, and have wondered what material would work well to shape golf features.  I can't wait to play around with some of this kinetic sand.

Now all you need is one of these:

[Josh Smith]

Josh P.

Does that have a knuckle bucket?  A little fescue green food coloring for grow in.  I like where u are headed with this.  How fun could this be.  I would think an owner would love it.
 

[Cory Brown]

A.V. Macan used plasticine models. They have one at the BC Golf Museum and a picture of it can be found in Mike Riste's biography of Macan Just Call Me Mac]. Very cool concept.

[Tom_Doak]

I do not know of any modern architects using plasticine.  Pete Dye used to get down on his hands and knees and make a little model in the dirt, but most of them only lasted 10 minutes.

I don't use plasticine because I am working with the existing topo, and not treating it like a hunk of clay.

[RJ_Daley]

A dozen or more years ago, we had a golf course design contest.  Actually, I think it was the internet GCA discussion group that preceded GCA.com.  (I can't even remember  )

Anyway, one of the long time group participants and one of our group celebrity superintendents, Pete G., dove headlong into the contest and outdid everyone with his 3-D model of the property from the 2ft elevations 1"=100' contour map.  He grafted the map out and transferred it to larger scale on a 4X8 plywood sheet.  Then he built it up with plaster, to very close approximation terrain contours. But the twist was, IIRC, that to do it to precise scale elevations didn't give enough accentuation to the slopes and character, because the elevations sort of washed out when blown up to larger scale.  So, again IIRC, Pete doubled the elevation heights so they could be understood better.  Then he went on to route and even colorize the model and add some trees and such like they do with the model railroaders.  I had the pleasure of visiting Pete at his home where he had it all set up in his basement out in San Mateo.  It was impressive. 

I'd seen this done almost identically before.  I had a friend who was the project manager of Grand Geneva, including overseeing the development of the Palmer, Trevino and Player courses.  There was a large R.E. component as well.  In the sales phase, they did a scale 3-D model of the entire property, including the golf courses.  It was also pretty impressive as a sales tool to give customers a good representation of the intended look of the finished project. 

Will we eventually see some version of this approach of creating models with 3-D printing? 

Maybe TD can educate us as to just how helpful these models would be to the actual construction process, even with a inexperienced in golf course shaping operator.  I'm thinking.... not so much.  I'm thinking that the experience Tom relates to shaping something with the hand in the dirt to generally represent some shape, then erasing it with a swipe of the shoe pretty much lets us know how far the model aid actually goes.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I've actually just made one a few weeks ago for a proposed green... Using clay.

You do indeed have to accentuate the elevations. They get across a concept quite well, especially when you are working with inexperienced operators who don't read drawings well and aren't used to shaping golf features...

David Kidd and Paul Kimber used a sand box for their greens at the Castle Course I believe...

[Wade Whitehead]

Couldn't a modern architect use a 3-D printer to reproduce (in scale) the topo, then modify it as a model or exploration?

Would seem to be an appropriate use of that newer technology.

WW

[RJ_Daley]

As I think about it, I have a vague memory of a thread many years ago on this subject.  And IIRC, I think someone posted photos of another project done in this 3-D modelling done by one of the 'big house' design firms of a high profile course.  Darned if I can remember the specifics.

[Joel_Stewart]

Couldn't a modern architect use a 3-D printer to reproduce (in scale) the topo, then modify it as a model or exploration?

Would seem to be an appropriate use of that newer technology.

WW

I've been waiting for an architect to come up with a 3-D rendering.  It has to be the future for those who want such a model.

[Joshua Pettit]

Here's a pretty neat plasticine model of Lido by CBM circa 1915

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yes I would think 3D printing would be the new version of clay models.

Even 3D renderings would give most shapers the idea of what they need to do to shape a particular green, tee, or bunker.

[Tom_Doak]

David Kidd and Paul Kimber used a sand box for their greens at the Castle Course I believe...

For which position is this provided as evidence?

[Josh Smith]

I should have taken a picture of the quick redesign of the 11th green at St. Andrews I did while in the check out line at the art store.  It was a huge improvement on what Old Tom had come up with.    

[Ally Mcintosh]

David Kidd and Paul Kimber used a sand box for their greens at the Castle Course I believe...

For which position is this provided as evidence?

I wasn't taking a position.

For what it's worth, the model I just made was for a green on a pancake flat piece of land. I don't see the benefit so much when there is contour there to work with already.

[Bob_Huntley]

Josh, quite a few architects used plasticene models in the early days, including Mackenzie, Simpson and Fowler. There have been threads on this topic.

Had a look at this Kinetic Sand on a YouTube video, looks interesting, wonder if it would hold its shape for bunkers and mounds etc?

Neil,

I hate to disgree with you but MacKenzie was death on plasticine models.

I posted this some years ago but cannot  find it on the GCA Search function. Joe Moro and Mac were at loggerheads most of the time.

Tom MacWood:
 This is from American Golfer February 1934.

Bob_Huntley:
 Quote from: TEPaul on September 03, 2009, 12:42:08 PM

I thought that letter (or letters) where AM sort of goes ballistic to Morse over Mayo had more to do with whether or not AM was going to do Monterrey Peninsula. (At the date of that letter (letters?) PB was already redone, right?).

I have that letter (letters?) around here somewhere but it seems like Hunter (or maybe Egan and Lapham too) were the ones who sort of smoothed things over with Morse when AM went ballistic to him about Mayo. It sounds to me like Mayo didn't want to be responsible for maintaining such elaborate bunkering.


Quote from: TEPaul on September 03, 2009, 12:42:08 PM

I thought that letter (or letters) where AM sort of goes ballistic to Morse over Mayo had more to do with whether or not AM was going to do Monterrey Peninsula. (At the date of that letter (letters?) PB was already redone, right?).

I have that letter (letters?) around here somewhere but it seems like Hunter (or maybe Egan and Lapham too) were the ones who sort of smoothed things over with Morse when AM went ballistic to him about Mayo. It sounds to me like Mayo didn't want to be responsible for maintaining such elaborate bunkering.


Tom,

Here is the letter to which you refer,


Santa Cruz, California
January 26th, 1932


Mr.S.F.B. Morse
Del Monte Properties Company
Del Monte, California.

My dear Morse,

In view of the understanding that has arisen between myself and Joe Mayo, I should like to know what my position is in regard to the Shore Course of the Monterey Peninsula Country Club.

As you know, I did the designing and plans for the Shore Course some years ago and since then I have made many inspections of the ground with the view of obtaining ideas for the lessening of the cost of construction of the Course and increasing its popularity.

I have made further inquiries and there can be little  doubt of Joe Mayo's opposition to working with me. I was informed not only by one, but several people both before and after the selection of an architect that Joe Mayo's opposition to working with me had considerable influence on the views of the Committee. They felt that the Del Monte Properties Company had done so much for Pacific Grove that they must have an architect who would work in harmony with the Del Monte employees. I heard this several days before the election so I telephoned Joe Mayo to ask him if this were true; he said it was and that he refused to work with me. I asked him why hw was opposed to me and he said that I had criticised his work

He also expressed his disinclination to meet me and discuss the matter. It is quite true that I have criticised the work he has dione for me, not only at the Monterey Peninsula Course but at Pebble Beach, and that I shall continue to criticise any work he does under my supervision until his work compares favorably with the other Courses we have done in California.

                                                                             -2-

On the other hand, I have no objection to working with Joe Mayo. I like him. He is an enthusiast, a hard worker and an excellent superintendent of labor and euipment. If he could only once get it into his head that goulf course constuction work is an artist's and not an engineer's job and would not resent constructive criticism. I believe he could do as god work as anyone

The trouble with Joe is that he thinks he knows. He also likes to work from plasticene models. I am opposed to plasticene models for the reasons expressed in my book and in articles written over twenty years ago-greens constructed from plasticene models lool like plasticene models dumped on the ground, and have no artistic relationship to the suroundings.

Tom Simpson, at one time Herbert Fowler's partner, has become one of the best golf architects in Europe since he gave up plasticene models and used artistic drawings.When he relied on plasticene models his work was most unsatisfacory.I want to make it quite clear that I have had no difference of opinion with Mora and that as afar as I know he has shown no opposition to me. I never met him until recently--his consultations regarding the irrigation at Cypress Point, Monterey Peninsula and the Meadow Course were entirly with Robert Hunter.

You have raised the point that all golf courses show a tendency to become weedier year by year.This is an opinion held by many prominent people in the golf world and it is true that most of the best known courses in Europe and America have deteriorated year by year. On the other hand I do not know of a single course where our advice has been taken in regard to seeding, fertilizing and upkeep which has not improved every year.

Most green Committees and green-keepers make the mistake of overfeeding their Courses with the wring kind of fertilizers. The more money thay spend, the worse their Course become. This is largely owing to the fact they feed courses similarly to agricultural land and the result is their fairways become a mass of weeds, daisies, clover and worms.

I have witten you at considerable length, but feel that the success of Del Monte depends to no small degree on its Golf Courses.

The solid test of a Golf Course is its poularity with all classes of players. Nearly thirty years of experience of constructing and reconstructing Golf Courses has enabled me to speak with considerable confidence on the subject. I know that every Golf Course we have reconstructed has increased in popularity as evidenced by the large increase of members and green fees I see, for example, that according to the San Francisco Examiner even in these hard times, Lake Merced has forty new members, notwithstanding the fact that we only spent $12,000 in reconstructing it and most of the money was expended in filling up over one hundred unnecessary bunkers.

In conclusion, I wish to thank you personally for all you have done for me not only lately but iin the past.

Very sincerely yours.



AM/CM

[Neil_Crafter]

Bob
Mackenzie did use plasticene models in his early days, but I don't think post WW1. And he certainly came out in the 1930s in quite violent opposition to them. But this doesn't alter the fact that he used them once upon a time. See p47 of The Spirit of St Andrews.

"Plasticene is useful to teach the greenkeeper points in construction he would not otherwise understand; in fact I believe I was the first golf course designer to use it for this purpose. The 14th green at Alwoodley, which was the first one made there, was constructed from a model in plasticene."

He then later goes on to say that:

"A green constructed from a model in plasticene looks like a plasticene model."

The defense rests its case  

[Mark Bourgeois]

It's interesting to read Mack call out Fowler by name. My sense was that's who he targeted in "Spirit." Somewhere Fowler wrote about a benefit of a cross-country train trip being not only time to build plasticine models but to darn his socks!

[Josh Smith]

Video of Jim Urbina using sand model at Old Mac.

http://vimeo.com/3455358

Thank you to Will Smith for the Video and Link.

[Josh Smith]

Kinetic Sand Fun.  It's my Chinese Rock Garden.

How do you think this looks.  Would you pay to play it? 

[Phil Young]

Tilly himself made his own plasticene models for his designs and did so from the beginning of his career. By the mid-teens he was advertising that he would design green complexes for clubs by mail. Send him an elevation drawing and he'd send a set of design drawings with plasticene models. Here's one of his ads:
 

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