Strategy, Experience, and Astronomy.

[DMoriarty]

Tom, you obviously have reservations about my pronouncement that Rustic doesnt need the qualifier.  Fair enough.

So, at what price would Rustic no longer be a great course?

It's a tricky thing to pull off, however... The masses are also lured by frills... cart girls, pretty water features, flashy bunkers etc. do matter to a lot of people and conditions matter to nearly everyone... If you're gonna go minimalist, you're gonna have to offer SOMETHING else to keep them coming back - be it subtle, interesting strategic golf holes, great conditions, cheap price... This just isn't as easy as it seems, and thus all the more kudoes ought to go to Rustic for pulling it off successfully.

I think it is short sighted for golf courses to rely on the kind of customers who are lured by cart girls, pretty water features, and the like.  As they sing down in Texas, there are more pretty girls than one.  

Also, how do you know that the Rustic formula isnt as easy as it seems?  Do you know of many low cost minimilist courses with tremendous and user friendly designs that have failed economically?  

[THuckaby2]

David:

Rustic is a great golf course no matter what.  

Just how great is a matter of personal opinion.  Just please realize I gave it very high marks in the rating form I did for GD.

What it remains really without much doubt or question is one of the best, if not THE best, "affordable" golf courses in our state.  If that's not enough for its admirers, well... good for you, keep fighting the fight.  Just please do realize that I personally am not nearly the enemy you seem to make me out to be.

As for golf courses picking and choosing their customers, well... maybe that will work, I don't know.

More importantly though, if every golf course was minimalist then Rustic wouldn't be as special, would it?  To me, there is room in golf for all.

There have been a few low-cost minimalist courses that have failed, I'm sure - there are a few up here that closed because the land they sat on was worth more as condos then as a golf course.  But that's not a fair comparison, and doesn't matter really, because low-cost minimalist has traditionally meant "muni/boring/poorly maintained piece of crap" and those that are interesting - like Rustic and Wild Horse in NE -a seem to be just coming into being in recent years.

In any case this is why I said Rustic remains a great role model.  All I am saying beyond that is that VARIETY remains a great thing, and just because YOU and I and many here prefer minimalism doesn't mean that everyone does, nor is it certain that that's even close to a majority view... Good lord, I know quite a few SoCal friends who loved Cascades and Tierra Rejada and were bored by Rustic... sure, they are ignorant and dare I say "wrong", but they do exist... Does a designer/developer try to change their minds, or do some courses get built that cater to their ignorance?  I can't see what's wrong with giving them what they want... There are plenty of other courses for you and I to play.

Bottom line also is that in a strong economy, frill-filled CCFADs are packed.  In a weak economy, all of a sudden price matters a lot more and those are ghost-towns because they priced themselves too high, and the lower cost courses get even more packed then they always were.  A large portion of the consumers are always going to want low-cost golf, no matter what the economy is like... The problem for CCFADs is they lose all the "iffy" customers in a weak economy.

But none of this means that every course on the planet needs to be minimalist and low cost... CCFADs survive the weak econony by catering to tournament groups and upping the service such that those for whom money isn't an issue just go there more...

I see nothing WRONG with any of this.

It remains a big beautiful world of golf, with room for one and all.

TH

[DMoriarty]

Tom,

More importantly though, if every golf course was minimalist then Rustic wouldn't be as special, would it?  

More special because it is unique?  That's a little like the "most affordable"  designation, isnt it?   The way I look at it, Rustic would still be Rustic no matter what else gets built and no matter what its green fees.  Same goes for every other course.  It is quality or it is not.

Is National any less special because there might be one or two courses built in a similar style?  

Oh Yeah . . . You dont have to reveal your ratings to me, after all they are confidential.  And I have never thought of you as an enemy of Rustic Canyon.  
 
But I do strenuously disagree with your live-and-let-live attitude regarding CCFAD's and the Tierra Rejada's of the world.  I've always been a little more of a live-and-help-die kind of guy myself.  

But I think I will bow out for now, think about it, and maybe bring it back to life in another form.  I think at this point we could probably type our posts for each other, and I wouldnt mind hearing what a few others have to say on these issues.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
I will remind you that you once told me that you liked TJ Rejada and Cascades, and that the high voltage transmission towers and sky jump holes with 300 yard carries didn't bother you.

I also don't get it when you say your really not into the architecture, then comment on how Cypress Point #13 reminded you of Mike Miller's pictures, but yet, rate golf courses for the leading golf publication, as well as hang out on a golf architecture website. Personally, I think you do like architecture and that you realy do want to tear your friends, who are totally clueless, heads off ala Ozzy Osborn.

Now that is a ranting and rating I could really respect.

[THuckaby2]

David and Tommy:

You know, I appreciate the interest you to take in me and my motivations regarding golf and golf course architecture.  I try to talk about this stuff with my wife and her eyes glaze over then the conversation quickly turns to patio furniture.  

Beyond that, it does intrigue me still as to WHY you guys care what the hell I think, but I continue to be touched.

To answer some specifics here...

Dave:  you're right, we've taken this as far as we can go.  We differ on this, I am most definitely always going to be live and let live re golf courses, as I personally can have fun at any and none ever bother me.  Hell yes I like some better than others, but I did enjoy Tierra Rejada, for example, and would go back if that's where three close friends wanted to play.  Oh, I'd try to steer them to Rustic Canyon where I believe we'd all have more fun, but if they were adamant, then in the end that to me is more important.  I wouldn't try too hard to change their minds, as it really doesn't matter to me where they have their fun and why as long as the fun occurs.  And although you likely think the round at Tierra Rejada would be painful, for us it would be a blast.  The people would be more important than the course.

And that's always going to be the case...

So Tommy, first, I never said I wasn't "into" golf course architecture - I dig it!  The nearly 100 books I own on the subject would attest to that, if not my participation here.  I just don't think it's absolutely fundamentally important, to the exclusion of all other facets of the great game of GOLF... It's part of the whole, not the whole in and of itself...

In any case, sure, I enjoyed both Tierra Rejada and Cascades, although I am not blind to the architectural deficiences of these as compared to Rustic Canyon.  If I were to submit GD ratings for the first two (I wasn't a rater at the time I played them, and I don't think either was on our nominated list anyway) they would have been far lower on basically all categories than what I gave Rustic.  But sure, I had fun there, and nope, the power lines didn't bother me... But remember, if I am playing golf, that's time well spent and not much bothers me PERIOD.

So that doesn't mean I didn't have fun at those two relatively horrid golf courses, won't have fun if I play there again, nor do I begrudge anything from those who say they like the courses, even more than Rustic... and yes, these friends DO exist...

To me, it is a big beautiful golf world with room for one and all, and life is way too short to take any of this too seriously.

So I participate here because I enjoy the banter and the friendships I have made through this dg and predecessors to it.  I sometimes get into discussing the architectural merits of golf holes and golf courses because that is definitely the over-riding subject here (although far from the only topic).  I rate golf courses for GD because I was invited to do so, and because that too is very fun.  I have no delusions that mine is anything more than one of 750 votes in this process though, and I have no desire to change the golf world, even if my 1/750th voice could do so.

And no, though I do respect and admire Ozzie and thought his version of "take me out to the ballgame" ought to go down with the all-time best renditions ever done at Wrigley Field, I won't soon be tearing anyone's head off.

Not over golf course architecture, anyway.

But you wanna talk college sports some more?  There's a topic where no live and let live exists, and heads DO get torn off.

FIGHT ON!
44-13!

 

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, and lest we not forget the numbers 42-27-5
(I bet you didn't even know that!)

[THuckaby2]

Tommy:

I know those numbers very well.  As I told Mr. Mucci, those who have nothing to talk about now do so love to live in the past.

Perhaps you can help Patrick locate those current football rankings.  Gee, I just can't find them....

 

TH

[DMoriarty]

I will remind you that you once told me that you liked TJ Rejada and Cascades, and that the high voltage transmission towers and sky jump holes with 300 yard carries didn't bother you.

Tommy, you haven't seen power lines until you have played TPC Valencia.  Sadly, I will be unable to accompany you on that round.  Perhaps Tom's pals have room in their foursome . . .

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,
Looks like I'll be myself when I get there!

[THuckaby2]

I guess I'm just used to power lines... they cut through my beloved and behated Santa Teresa also!

SCU's uniform color scheme may be viewed here.  Note how thankfully different it is from the Santa Clara of the Midwest, thank God.

http://santaclarabroncos.ocsn.com/

TH