What is the best hole in the world and why?

[Niall C]

Soren


I suspect I'm more opinionated than knowledgeable but I do like to come on this forum for discussions on architecture. The content of your post re the aesthetics of the hole playing a big part of what makes a hole great, may not be that different from some other posters but the way you presented it in bullet point format, highlighted that content which was why I commented on your post.


To me it goes to the heart of the problem with a lot of modern design which is that aesthetics seem to count for more than strategic or playing interest of the course. One of the best and most interesting holes I know has as a backdrop a multi-storey grain store at Silloth docks. The hole is a wonder, at least to me, with the way its laid out over what is quite a dramatic landscape and with steep drop off's on either side of a narrow green with just the hint of a Biarritz dip half way up the green. Even though it has no sand bunkers and isn't particularly long, it is  hard hole to par never mind get a birdie. It's a fantastic hole, however would it get built today with the grainstore as a backdrop ? I kind of doubt it.


Niall   

[Søren Rye]

Niall,

Sorry if I misinterpreted your opinionatedness with knowledge 

Staying with RCD and your input about great holes that would not be build the same way today, #11 would fall in that category as well. I shall, however, refrain from doing a bullet point list of why I like that hole as well.

Søren

[Sam Krume]

I'm going to chuck in #12 at Swinley Forest. Draw off the tee with a semi blind downhill tee shot followed by ideally a fade to a green set on the angle...

[Mark Pavy]

To me it goes to the heart of the problem with a lot of modern design which is that aesthetics seem to count for more than strategic or playing interest of the course. One of the best and most interesting holes I know has as a backdrop a multi-storey grain store at Silloth docks. The hole is a wonder, at least to me, with the way its laid out over what is quite a dramatic landscape and with steep drop off's on either side of a narrow green with just the hint of a Biarritz dip half way up the green. Even though it has no sand bunkers and isn't particularly long, it is  hard hole to par never mind get a birdie. It's a fantastic hole, however would it get built today with the grainstore as a backdrop ? I kind of doubt it.

Niall

Grain Silo, Lighthouse, Mountain, Ocean or whatever, they're all aesthetics that play an integral part for our brains spatial perception- they are strong reference points because of the vertical nature of silos and lighthouses and volumetric indicators of mountains and oceans- they affect how we perceive the space we occupy.

Surely you can appreciate the intimacy afforded by the silos on the 4th tee shot vs the vastness or void of the tee shot on the 5th?

[Niall C]

Mark

As a former member who played the course hundreds of times I think I can truthfully say that I barely ever noticed the backdrop, and that is what the grain silo is. The back of the green is built up slightly and hides the practice ground immediately to the rear such that the focus of the golfer (and perhaps first time golfers are different ?) is really about what is there between tee to green within the perceived playing corridor. That typically would be the limits for me. Am I any different than others ? Possibly but I doubt it.

If I read you right, I think that you are suggesting that the relatively open backdrop for the drive on the 5th (you can see the Isle of Man on a clear day) somehow influences me ? In truth I've always thought that the tee shot on the 5th was more constrictive than the one on the 4th because of the out of bounds and the carry over the gulley. You might say my horizon really is the out of bounds. However, do I appreciate the view ? Yes I do, but as a view but with no bearing on the golf either consciously or unconsciously.

Niall

[Ronald Montesano]

No time to read your erudite contributions. I trust you have this resolved by now, but just in case you've not...


It can't be a flat hole, but it doesn't have to be a mountainous one. It needs a crescendo, not a rollicking beginning, although it can have both.


There needs to be a bit of bunkering, but not nearly the amount to make you think of the bunkers as one of the principal two elements of the hole.


It must not be a straight hole. There needs to be some weave, some bend, if only to force the golfer to consider some weave or bend in the shot shape.


The putting surface must be sizable, neither too tiny nor too enormous, but blessed with undulation and a bit of trickery (but not outright chicanery.)


The putting surroundings should have run-off areas, allowing for pitching, chipping, bumping and putting.


It can't be a par three. I want to spend some time on it, for sake of our siblings.


I've no idea which hole across our globe checks all the boxes and stands above all others that do the same.

[Jim Tang]

As others have mentioned....the 17th at TOC.


It's a one-of-a-kind hole.  Totally unique.
The line taken off the tee heavily dictates strategy for the second shot.
The bunker and wall are true hazards.
The hole comes late in the round, allowing for anticipation to build.

[Mark Chaplin]

The additional plus point for 17 TOC is anyone can play it.

[Ronald Montesano]

Are you giving the penultimate at TOC points for its competitive history? Doesn't that handicap holes that have not hosted major events? I would think this should be a exercise in isolation: isolate the hole from its (lacking) competitive history and then judge it.


What if the 17th were the 8th at TOC? Would it be less of a hole? I'd have to situate the clubhouse behind 9 green, I understand, but what if?

[Phil McDade]

Are you giving the penultimate at TOC points for its competitive history? Doesn't that handicap holes that have not hosted major events? I would think this should be a exercise in isolation: isolate the hole from its (lacking) competitive history and then judge it.


What if the 17th were the 8th at TOC? Would it be less of a hole? I'd have to situate the clubhouse behind 9 green, I understand, but what if?

Ronald:


I think there are points to be awarded a hole if it can play as intended, and still be great, for both tournament play and for regular member or visitor play. The very best hole in the world ought to be both -- a standard by which the greats of the game can be measured, as well as those who play it day in and day out. I'd argue it narrows the field, in a good way.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm curious how TOC 17 can be the greatest hole in the world...

Yet, as has been mentioned here by many in previous threads over the years, if any architect tried to build something like that today, they would be laughed out of the building. A tee shot over a hotel, a teeny green that's almost impossible to hit, with a nasty /deep front side bunker, right next to a road that's in play??

Just wonderin' 

[Rory Connaughton]

13 PV

[Tim_Weiman]

Jason,


Though I have only played and seen it one time, my choice would be #6 at Royal Melbourne.


As far as setting, I wouldn't call it beautiful. A bit like many holes at St Andrews Beach, it is very attractive, but pretty pictures aren't what makes the hole.


It is a golf hole, not a photo opportunity. It has strategy off the tee. Strategy on the approach. It provides enough room and options for the mid handicap player to avoid a blow up hole, but requires precision to score. It certainly has a green that can be a big challenge to putt, especially if an approach is left in the wrong place.


I would enjoy playing it everyday.

[Brad Wilbur]

I'll add #13 at Pacific Dunes to the mix.  A seaside par 4, teeing off by the ocean, but venturing slightly inland, and then the stirring second shot to a green that appears to be cantilevered on the edge of a cliff that appears to extend over the Pacific Ocean.  If that wasn't enough, the bailout area for the second shot has a bunker complex that gives me chills each time I walk by it.  It's not that long, but when the winds are in your face, it's a LOT of golf hole. 

[Pat Burke]

I'm a sucker for short holes.
I love 15 at Kingston Heath
Tests a short iron. Tough green
Tough recoveries, and a touch of blind to get you excited

[Tim Gallant]

Because being the best at anything is subjective, I feel you have to apply a subjective logic to judging the best hole in the world. By this point, I do believe that the 18th hole @ the Old Course at St Andrews is the best hole in the world. Why? Because I would imagine that it has produced more sentimentality and more tears from golfers than any other hole in the world.


It is spiritual and sparks something in us that goes beyond course strategy. It recalls us back to why we first picked up the game, and represents all that is right about the game. Walking arm-in-arm with your father, brother, friend, spouse or other down the 18th fairway is what the game is all about. Sure this happens elsewhere all over the world, but I doubt any one hole has seen more emotion, and has stirred and reaffirmed a love for the game more than the 18th.

[Tim_Weiman]

Because being the best at anything is subjective, I feel you have to apply a subjective logic to judging the best hole in the world. By this point, I do believe that the 18th hole @ the Old Course at St Andrews is the best hole in the world. Why? Because I would imagine that it has produced more sentimentality and more tears from golfers than any other hole in the world.


It is spiritual and sparks something in us that goes beyond course strategy. It recalls us back to why we first picked up the game, and represents all that is right about the game. Walking arm-in-arm with your father, brother, friend, spouse or other down the 18th fairway is what the game is all about. Sure this happens elsewhere all over the world, but I doubt any one hole has seen more emotion, and has stirred and reaffirmed a love for the game more than the 18th.

Hard to argue with your unique perspective. Great post.

[Doug Siebert]

I'm curious how TOC 17 can be the greatest hole in the world...

Yet, as has been mentioned here by many in previous threads over the years, if any architect tried to build something like that today, they would be laughed out of the building. A tee shot over a hotel, a teeny green that's almost impossible to hit, with a nasty /deep front side bunker, right next to a road that's in play??

Just wonderin' 

Just because no one could ever build anything like it now doesn't mean it can't be great. I guess we need to define better what we mean by "best hole in the world"?

Is it a hole that could be held up as an example for architects to emulate and say "we need more holes that are like this"? If so, it can't be considered, for the reasons you state.

If "best hole in the world" as I believe it is the hole you would choose if you had to limit all your golf for the rest of your life to a single hole, it would be very hard to beat. Holes like ANGC's 13th have options if you are long enough, but once you aren't long enough the option is gone. OK I suppose as you age eventually you continue to get shorter and the option returns on your third shot....but by then your trajectory would no longer allow you to hold the green with a long third. Even if you could stay in your prime, ANGC's 13th doesn't provide the variety of challenges that TOC's 17th does. The heroic carry to the green sounds awesome to those of us who have never played it and never will, but I suspect once you've done it a few dozen times it isn't quite so special. Then it is just another reachable par 5 with a creek in front and a tricky green.

[Tim Leahy]

With reference to Mike's thread about seaside courses, the answer is the 18th at Pebble.

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