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Joe Bausch

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greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« on: February 17, 2015, 12:15:24 PM »
A golden age course here in Philly has a few greens like this one, these three pics of a par 4 running slightly downhill at the end.  The transition from the end of the fw to the green being seamless (all pics are clickable to much larger size):



And here is a view from left of the green:



And from right of the green:



I do get out to a decent amount to modern courses, but my memory does not recall seeing many greens like this at all.  Are there reason(s) this type of green seems to have fallen out of favor?  Or are modern ones out there that I've simply missed or ignored?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 04:18:00 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Will Lozier

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2015, 12:26:07 PM »
Maybe that firm and fast conditions fell completely out of vogue, thereby making such greensites novel.  As forced aerial carries became more common during the Dark Ages - penal or target golf came into style - the fairway that bled into the green like this beaut were dug up and replaced with a fronting bunker.


Josh Bills

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2015, 01:06:43 PM »
17th at Dismal River Red is one among many at Dismal's complex.


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2015, 01:08:51 PM »
I have actually done two greens like that, with the center spine running down the back.  Saw it at Ross Beverly (I think....) liked it, and found a few places where it would fit.

Of course, the overall effect is softer than shown there.  And the green sort of flares out at the back, because I feel you need about 40 feet either side of the ridge.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris Roselle

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2015, 01:10:41 PM »
A golden age course here in Philly has a few greens like this one, these three pics of a par 4 running slightly downhill at the end.  The transition from the end of the fw to the green being seamless:



And here is a view from left of the green:



And from right of the green:



I do get out a decent amount to modern courses, but my memory does not recall seeing many greens like this at all.  Are there reason(s) this type of green seems to have fallen out of favor?  Or are modern ones out there that I've simply missed or ignored?

Joe, Tavistock CC has some truly wonderful green complexes including the finishing green.

Joe Bausch

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2015, 04:19:11 PM »
This green is the 12th at Tavistock.  Three greens in a row are somewhat similar (10-12) and outstanding. 
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Garland Bayley

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2015, 04:32:10 PM »
The picture from the left shows a distinct transition from fairway cut to green cut, so I guess I don't understand your "seamless".

There are greens at the Bandon Resort where you end up debating if you are on the green or not to determine whether the flagstick needs to be removed. Now that's what I call seamless.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joe Bausch

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2015, 04:39:07 PM »
The picture from the left shows a distinct transition from fairway cut to green cut, so I guess I don't understand your "seamless".

There are greens at the Bandon Resort where you end up debating if you are on the green or not to determine whether the flagstick needs to be removed. Now that's what I call seamless.


Nit-picker.  :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

BCowan

Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2015, 05:09:55 PM »
Joe,

  Do you find Park Jr courses to have that seamless trademark?  I don't know of any modern. 

Joe Bausch

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2015, 05:14:06 PM »
Joe,

  Do you find Park Jr courses to have that seamless trademark?  I don't know of any modern. 

I have seen greens at Park, Jr courses like this, for sure.  Like the 16th at Philmont North.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Peter Pallotta

Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2015, 05:26:33 PM »
Joe - I remember (or think I remember) seeing work by Mike Young and earlier work by Tom D that had these lovely at-grade green sites. (My poster course for such sites -  in part because it is close enough to me that I may actually one day play it -- is Willie Watson's Belvedere Golf Club in Michigan.) I'm not sure why we don't see more of them, but perhaps it is in part because they don't photograph well, or at least not 'dramatically' enough, for the modern, photo-driven, instant-hit economics of the golf business.

Peter

Edit: My brain must be getting soft from all that comedy I'm playing with....(Don Vito to Sonny), but I can't believe I forgot WP!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 05:38:11 PM by PPallotta »

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2015, 05:30:55 PM »


Joe,
What you are describing is no bunkers blocking the approach and a green built at grade.

Jeff,
Are you describing the spine or the seamless transition from the approach to the green?
From your past descriptions it sounds as if most, if not all, of your greens are built above grade.
Mike

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Benjamin Litman

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2015, 05:36:26 PM »
Joe,

Quogue Field Club, a nine-hole gem on Long Island, has several such greens (1, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 all come to mind), especially after a recent restoration.

I know it's not ideal, but here is an overhead, post-restoration shot of the course in 2014; to me at least, the seamless fairway-to-green transition you speak of is apparent even from a bird's eye view.



Hope all is well,

Benjamin
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Joe Bausch

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2015, 05:42:19 PM »
Mike Nuzzo:  thanks for the very efficient description of this style of green.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

George Freeman

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2015, 07:20:32 PM »
If I recall correctly, the first green at Lost Dunes in Michigan has these characteristics.  I think it also slopes front to back which only accentuates the feature.
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Josh Stevens

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2015, 12:04:04 AM »
MAC builds a few of them down in Oz.  I am guessing however that they only work on sandy well draining sandy soil that reduces the need for the green to be perched.

the 13th at Karrinyup springs to mind as one where the hole plays downhill to the green, but the  FW simply transitions straight onto the green with no discernible movement

Doug Siebert

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2015, 01:31:40 AM »
I enjoy these greens, but I can see why they are rare in modern designs - too "unfair" for a shot that won't stay on the green.  That's why you see so many greens that run uphill at the back (also helps with visibility which is another thing typical golfers feel they're entitled to)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Josh Tarble

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2015, 08:44:23 AM »
Wouldn't drainage be one of the key things stopping modern architects from building such a green?

I think many modern architects are building them on sandy sites conducive to draining.  Kingsley has a number of greens similar, Streamsong has a lot of greens like that and on and on....

I think the question is "does anyone build greens like that in clay soil anymore?"


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2015, 08:55:28 AM »
Mike,

I was focusing on the spline.

Josh,

It can be different in clay soil, but I think Mike's Wolf Point has as much clay as anywhere....at least most of that region does.

And then, you do what you gotta do. I try to keep them as low as possible, but the first thing to do is go out and survey the drainage outlet you are draining to, whether pipe, pond, or stream.  Since your 4" drain pipe needs at least 1% to drain, if it is pipe in a creek or pond, and you are 200 ft from that outlet, the pipe invert at the low point of the green must be at least 2 feet above water level, and if using 12-18" of sand/gravel for USGA, the front of the surface that much higher.  

You might leave another 6" just in case, meaning the that green has to be 3.5-4 foot about the outlet.  If you happen to be in a flood plain, the green surface (and preferably the bottom of the green dish, if applicable, but likely in clay soil) should be at least an inch above the 100 year flood plain, so you fill to there.  And, if you are doing any grass depressions that need catch basins, you need to figure their outlets, and then the relative depth to the green.  In the modern world, you also need to be sure your green has at least one <5% approach for ADA wheelchair traffic, which of course, tends to lower the greens.

If that is still at ground level then you can build a ground level green.  If it comes out that you need a foot or two of fill to get there, you put in a foot or two of fill.........

The open front does allow you to keep it low.  If there are bunkers anywhere in front, they usually require similar math for their drain tiles, and 3-4 ft of depth, so then you need to create a fill pad if you want to see the green behind the bunkers.

Actually, between budgets, ADA, and the rise of public golf and the consideration of not kicking the ball far off the green with a steep slope, my guess is that the average height of greens above the fairway has come down over the last two decades and that their are plenty of "seamless" transitions from fw to green.  Certainly a lot more than in the RTJ/Wilson era, when the "elevated green" was a sign of distinction.

Not that those moderate upsweep approaches to elevated greens, such as we found at La Costa, aren't attractive, if not ground game friendly.  Maybe nostalgia, but I found them quite attractive, and would like to be using more elevated greens to create those, where possible.  That said, my work is usually in the public sector, and in my last two renovations, there aren't too many truly elevated greens. Most are near fairway level.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 09:05:36 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JNagle

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2015, 08:56:18 AM »
Josh -

Interesting that you mention drainage.  The first image presented by Joe is of the 12th at Tavistock C.C. (NJ) designed by Alexander Findlay.  The approach to the green was modified because of the abundance of water draining onto the green.  Travel 100+ miles West to another Findlay course, Lebanon C.C. and there one finds another "fall-away" green at the 6th hole where we also modified the approach to reduce the amount of flow onto the green.  We have worked on and studied many of these types of greens on courses Ross, Park Jr., Findlay and others.  The 10th at Lehigh comes to mind, the 11th at Lake Sunapee C.C. (NH).  Of the modern, I believe Stonewall's 15th (?) has a green and fairway combination that flows beautifully together.

 
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Doug Siebert

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Re: greens like this: does anyone build them anymore?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2015, 03:47:44 AM »
In the modern world, you also need to be sure your green has at least one <5% approach for ADA wheelchair traffic, which of course, tends to lower the greens.


Does ADA actually require this?  What about bunkers, do those need to be accessible as well?  I had no idea ADA extended to golf courses, that's just stupid!
My hovercraft is full of eels.