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Joe Bausch

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Re: Squared up greens - Golden age or just a good idea?
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2014, 08:23:27 PM »
The first ones I ever played were/are at Tavistock outside of Philly. It really is an unusual but cool look.

the backs were rounded off but the fronts really caught your eye. If I recall that is a Findlay course. Maybe Jamie Slonis will chime in??

It is very much a Findlay design, Ed.

And the first three greens on the back nine are beautifully squared off!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Squared up greens - Golden age or just a good idea?
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2014, 08:46:53 PM »
Grass lines should always be driven by contour... I wouldn't go changing some of Mac/Raynor, etc now, but I'd never suggest it for something new.

John Connolly

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Re: Squared up greens - Golden age or just a good idea?
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2014, 12:37:25 AM »
Grass lines should always be driven by contour... I wouldn't go changing some of Mac/Raynor, etc now, but I'd never suggest it for something new.

Jaeger,

So this hits at the heart of my original question.

Why wouldn't you suggest it for something new? So many people have posted in the last several days how much they enjoy them from the Golden Age archies, myself included, but they're not really being built anymore.

And what do you mean by "grass lines should always be driven by contour"?
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Tom Allen

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Re: Squared up greens - Golden age or just a good idea?
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2014, 10:32:40 AM »
Brian Hoover's course immediately came to my mind as well.  I immediately pulled it up on Google Earth, only to find that he had already posted photos.  That course is a real treat.  I enjoyed the greens (especially the square fronts) tremendously while there.

Brett Wiesley

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Re: Squared up greens - Golden age or just a good idea?
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2014, 02:39:14 PM »
If you look at satellite photos, ie. google maps, of Dormie Club you'll notice almost all the greens of this new C&C course are rectangle or squared off.  When you play, the actual area with pinnable spots and puttable areas is likely rounded, as fitting with the terrain, but the pad is extended to rectangle/square and in a lot of spots aids with contoured feed-ins.

Glenn Kirby

Re: Squared up greens - Golden age or just a good idea?
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2014, 03:21:48 PM »
I was under the impression they'd been built this way to maximise pin positions at minimal cost. Many courses I've visited from this period have square greens that have been grown into thick rough and lost leaving greens much smaller than intended. Royal Winchester and Temple are two that spring to mind quickly.

I'll try and dig out some photos

Glenn

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Squared up greens - Golden age or just a good idea?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2014, 04:35:03 PM »
Grass lines should always be driven by contour... I wouldn't go changing some of Mac/Raynor, etc now, but I'd never suggest it for something new.

Jaeger,

So this hits at the heart of my original question.

Why wouldn't you suggest it for something new? So many people have posted in the last several days how much they enjoy them from the Golden Age archies, myself included, but they're not really being built anymore.

And what do you mean by "grass lines should always be driven by contour"?

John - This is the basic concept for what I refer to as: "Grasslines Explained"

The contours are what gives a green its character. They are gentle enough in places to for pins, and steep enough in other places to generate interest and strategy. This is best done when the contours are natural, or built to mimic nature. This is often done with convex, concave, rounded shapes, swales, and so on. A smooth curving grass line that follows the inside of a contour, rides up over the top to accentuate it, surrounds it, or mimics it will make it feel natural by giving it an explanation for why it exists. This will also create more an individual feel and uniqueness for each green, let alone give you more freedom in artistry and composition.

It need not be excessive contour, but enough to explain why they move the way they do, along with the strategic element goes a long way.

The same can be said for fairways, or tees. Imposing straight lines or excessive jogging without contour to dictate when or where it does makes them feel forced, unnatural or even arbitrary in cases... Square peg, round hole!

Joe Hancock

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Re: Squared up greens - Golden age or just a good idea?
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2014, 04:40:57 PM »
Jaeger,

I'll have to respectfully take a contrary position concerning grass lines. To my eye, nothing could be more predictable than moving a grass line because the ground moves. I much rather like having contours highlighted by not having them framed, if that makes sense.

Grass lines are an artistic and functional aspect of golf course presentation, and once you lock yourself into round peg/ round hole thinking, predictability sets in.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017