Level of sub's increase at private members clubs

[Lou_Duran]

Paul,

The difference being in our case it's a member owned club. But we've gradually taken one page after another from the proprietary playbook, it seems. I'm the least business-savvy country club member in the world so what do I know but it sure feels like an end-game tactic to me, which makes me sad.

Like real estate, its about location, location, location.  Timing and cycles as well.  Right now in Dallas, initiation fees and waiting lists at the top clubs are at or near historic highs.  Ditto for housing prices in many submarkets.  Those terrible, unfair market forces!

This also applies to Michael H's reference to "The Big World Theory".  I grew up in northwestern Ohio and we didn't have any hidden gems at any price level (nor were the CCs much to write home about).  The few inexpensive public courses were little more than converted cornfields or drainage land, designed and built by untrained locals, and maintained more closely to a residential lawn than a golf course.   Much of the same was true in and around Columbus, which though Scioto and Scarlet were excellent, neither were open to outside play or inexpensive (in the case of Scarlet, it was a bargain for OSU students).

I did find it very interesting in looking at real estate prices around Rock (Cornwall, England) where a "cottage" costs upwards £1 Million, while the golf is very cheap for members.  Though Rock is lovely and apparently quite popular presently, it is difficult to understand the home prices given that the average annual income in the country is reported at £26k and change, though it may help to explain why golf and fees might be declining (as in CA, people might be spending an inordinate amount of their resources on housing).  There must be some very draconian barriers to entry in housing construction there as is the case in CA, but I am getting off track.   

[Stephen Northrup]

I'm an Outpost Club member, for many of the same reasons I am a fan and supporter of GCA.com. I know all of the founders of the OC as well, and if Mr. Kavanaugh or anyone else were to experience a situation where an OC member was "obnoxious" or was "bullying" his or her way around a club, the founders would be mortified and that person would likely lose his or her membership in the OC.

The vast majority of OC members are members of local private clubs as well. Many OC members are members of the clubs in our network, which in some cases is how their clubs got in the OC network in the first place. Our playing privileges at the clubs in the OC network are extremely limited, and even more limited if you live within a certain distance from the club. Therefore, I don't buy the notion that a private club membership is "discounted" or otherwise sullied by a relative handful of rounds a year from OC members or other unaccompanied guests.

My most recent round at an OC network club was on a relatively chilly mid-week day when there were perhaps 10 to 15 rounds being played that day in total. My friend and I played 36 holes, had lunch, bought a couple of items in the pro shop, supported the caddie program with our business, were unfailingly polite, and left the club in the same or better condition than we found it. No one was harmed in the process.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Like real estate, its about location, location, location.  Timing and cycles as well.  Right now in Dallas, initiation fees and waiting lists at the top clubs are at or near historic highs.  Ditto for housing prices in many submarkets.  Those terrible, unfair market forces!



I did find it very interesting in looking at real estate prices around Rock (Cornwall, England) where a "cottage" costs upwards £1 Million, while the golf is very cheap for members.  Though Rock is lovely and apparently quite popular presently, it is difficult to understand the home prices given that the average annual income in the country is reported at £26k and change, though it may help to explain why golf and fees might be declining (as in CA, people might be spending an inordinate amount of their resources on housing).  There must be some very draconian barriers to entry in housing construction there as is the case in CA, but I am getting off track.   

Lou, Rock is also known as "Chelsea Sur Mer".  David Cameron holidays there and outside of Sandbanks in Poole Harbour it has to be the priciest place in the UK to get sea views.   As you say , Location , location, location..

[Paul Gray]

Lou,

There's a very simple explanation regarding property prices in Cornwall. Prices have been pushed up by high earning Londoners snapping up second homes. It's a big issue in that part of the word as Cornwall is one of the poorest parts of the country and locals simply can't afford property any more. People blame the Londoners, but that of course is nonsense. There are all sorts of nonsensical ideas about only allowing locals to buy certain properties or artificially limiting prices. It's a popular place so the issue is simply one of a chronic, long term under supply of property. Until we accept that many a village has to become a small town, the average price won't drop and the problem won't go away.

[Mark Chaplin]

St Enodoc membership for local residents is relatively easy to obtain, they are however full to the gunnels in the country membership category.

JK you are amusing : OC members bullying their way around clubs?  Surely if the clubs did not want external relationships they wouldn't have them. As Steve says visitors can have a positive outcome not just in green fee revenue. Caddies getting work at quiet times is just one way.

[Paul Gray]

St Enodoc membership for local residents is relatively easy to obtain, they are however full to the gunnels in the country membership category.

JK you are amusing : OC members bullying their way around clubs?  Surely if the clubs did not want external relationships they wouldn't have them. As Steve says visitors can have a positive outcome not just in green fee revenue. Caddies getting work at quiet times is just one way.

The answer is simple economics. John simply isn't subsidising enough. If he wants the place to himself he's going to have to dig deeper. You can't have what you can't afford.

[John Kavanaugh]

St Enodoc membership for local residents is relatively easy to obtain, they are however full to the gunnels in the country membership category.

JK you are amusing : OC members bullying their way around clubs?  Surely if the clubs did not want external relationships they wouldn't have them. As Steve says visitors can have a positive outcome not just in green fee revenue. Caddies getting work at quiet times is just one way.

The answer is simple economics. John simply isn't subsidising enough. If he wants the place to himself he's going to have to dig deeper. You can't have what you can't afford.

Don't buy your wife the jeweled comb you've been eyeing. 

[Paul Gray]

St Enodoc membership for local residents is relatively easy to obtain, they are however full to the gunnels in the country membership category.

JK you are amusing : OC members bullying their way around clubs?  Surely if the clubs did not want external relationships they wouldn't have them. As Steve says visitors can have a positive outcome not just in green fee revenue. Caddies getting work at quiet times is just one way.

The answer is simple economics. John simply isn't subsidising enough. If he wants the place to himself he's going to have to dig deeper. You can't have what you can't afford.

Don't buy your wife the jeweled comb you've been eyeing. 

Couldn't afford to.

[Nigel Islam]

For the record, I have played both Quail Creek and Lawrenceville Country Club and JK is certainly a member of each. I don't doubt the prices he quoted either. And they did have a PGA Tour event at QC. Its a very nice course with a little of a resort feel to it in the middle of nowhere.

[Jason Hines]

Paul,

The difference being in our case it's a member owned club. But we've gradually taken one page after another from the proprietary playbook, it seems. I'm the least business-savvy country club member in the world so what do I know but it sure feels like an end-game tactic to me, which makes me sad.

Like real estate, its about location, location, location.  Timing and cycles as well.  Right now in Dallas, initiation fees and waiting lists at the top clubs are at or near historic highs.  Ditto for housing prices in many submarkets.  Those terrible, unfair market forces!

This also applies to Michael H's reference to "The Big World Theory".  I grew up in northwestern Ohio and we didn't have any hidden gems at any price level (nor were the CCs much to write home about).  The few inexpensive public courses were little more than converted cornfields or drainage land, designed and built by untrained locals, and maintained more closely to a residential lawn than a golf course.   Much of the same was true in and around Columbus, which though Scioto and Scarlet were excellent, neither were open to outside play or inexpensive (in the case of Scarlet, it was a bargain for OSU students).

I did find it very interesting in looking at real estate prices around Rock (Cornwall, England) where a "cottage" costs upwards £1 Million, while the golf is very cheap for members.  Though Rock is lovely and apparently quite popular presently, it is difficult to understand the home prices given that the average annual income in the country is reported at £26k and change, though it may help to explain why golf and fees might be declining (as in CA, people might be spending an inordinate amount of their resources on housing).  There must be some very draconian barriers to entry in housing construction there as is the case in CA, but I am getting off track.   

The situation in the greater Kansas City metro is beginning to change as well, Meadowbrook CC and Brookridge CC sold for what appears to be real estate development purposes and Alvamar in Lawrence may have a similar fate.

What do you know, waiting lists are becoming common again for this market, but retaining younger members seems to be a long term challenge. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

Our climate is what makes golf so much cheaper.

There's a large portion of the US in which golf is a 4-5 month, at best, sport

Do you mean because it is too hot or too cold? My course here in Toronto just closed after a 6.5 month season which started about one month late, so even here in Canada we typically have a seven month season.

[Ken Moum]

The situation in the greater Kansas City metro is beginning to change as well, Meadowbrook CC and Brookridge CC sold for what appears to be real estate development purposes and Alvamar in Lawrence may have a similar fate.

What do you know, waiting lists are becoming common again for this market, but retaining younger members seems to be a long term challenge. 

Well, there's always Great Life.... they bought my club.  Much to my dismay.

Oddly, something must have gotten in their water, they did some much needed bunker renovations this summer, and they did them pretty well.

I wonder what they're going to do with Staley Farm, it really doesn't fit their M.O.

K