Drawing conclusions - TOC

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Is St Andrews responsible for the draw being the prefered flight of the golf ball ?

With out of bounds on the right, on the outbound and inbound holes, a draw at St Andrews has to be viewed as the prefered method of play.  Add to that the effect the wind has on the varying flights of a golf ball.

With St Andrews praised to the heavens, inspiring architects through the ages and copied throughout the golf universe,
is the course's architecture responsible for establishing a prefered method of play, the draw ?

[CHrisB]

That's an interesting question, but for now I'm more inclined to think that a draw has become preferred due to the general perception that:
(1) a draw is more difficult to hit
(2) a draw goes farther, and
(3) a draw cuts through the wind better.

But who knows?  TOC is the reason there are 18 holes, so I suppose it's possible.

[ChipOat]

Patrick:

I'll say "no" on this one although your hypothesis makes sense.

Instead, as a good player, I suspect you may agree with much of the following:

1) The "stronger" swing promotes a draw and the "better" ball strikers NATURAL flight pattern is more likely to be a draw.

2) In the words of Raymond Floyd, "you can't be a really good player unless you can draw the ball when you need to".

3) While a fade may be more controllable overall, the draw is a more boring, powerful shot (if not always the most appropriate) - particularly on a windy day.

Also:

TOC was played in reverse for the first 200 years or so with the trouble on the LEFT.

The great hickory shaft players were all right/left ball strikers who were able to control the torque of hickory through great timing as they pronated through the ball.

In the "small ball" era before watering systems, I would guess the draw went 20-50 yards further off the tee depending on terrain and condtions.

In essence, "inside out" or "inside to inside" is a stronger swing plane than "outside in".

All the above is true for both right handed and left handed golfers IMO.

I don't believe course design is the reason.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- It seems that the natural tendancy for a ball to go right, after being struck, is what needs to be overcome inorder to truely control that same ball. So the TOC would favor the draw because it shows an affinity for a game rather than just stepping up and bang'in.

Without having been there I would say that it also favors the draw because of the additional roll the ball gets. And after seeing how some of the lads strike it, they need that roll to effectively compete.

I usually need a pencil to draw the ball.  

[colin_chapman]

CHIPOAT


The Old Course was played in reverse for 200 years....are you certain?

[Len]

I would disagree with the entire hypothesis of Patrick's argument.

If the OB is on the right it makes more sense to me to always play a fade instead of a draw. If you draw the ball you always have to aim out over the OB to take it back in the fairway. A fade allows you a comfort zone in your mishits. Isn't this a basic course mangement skill?

However your comment about the wind does make sense in terms of the ball flights of fades vs. draws.

[ChipOat]

Colin Chapman:

The original routing of TOC was in reverse from today. At least 1 early Open Championship was contested that way.  I believe they still play that way for a week every April and a couple of weekends in the winter.  You can find a bunch of threads on that in the archives here - check it out.

I believe Old Tom Morris was responsible for the current "direction" of play as he was making changes to the course after returning to St. Andrews from Prestwick.

Whether it was 100 years or 200 years - my point to Patrick is still valid as to the original design having most of the trouble
on the left.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Len,

Your "aim out of bounds" comment would lead one to believe that you've never played St Andrews, is that true ?

There is a significant difference between a hook and a draw.

A draw does not have to be aimed out of bounds, merely to the center of the fairway, or right center of the fairway, or to be extremely safe in avoiding out-of-bounds, to the left center of the fairway.

Since a draw runs, and a fade or slice doesn't, the advantage of a draw becomes evident.

Many fades or slices, when confronted by the wind, become exagerated, thus bringing the out-of-bounds more into play.
Many, if not the majority of golfers, can't control a fade/slice in windy weather, making the draw the safer, prefered method of play at St Andrews.

High fades/slices in windy conditions usually end up with high scores and low ball inventory by the end of the round.

[ForkaB]

Pat

Len is more "right" than you.  At TOC, ending up on the right side of the fairway is more often preferable to ending up on the left (assuming tournament pin positions).  So, if you want to get to position A, the fade is very much preferable to the draw.  Of course, for the average punter (which you are surely not) the draw to the center is the safe play, guaranteed to minimize double bogies, but also unlikely to allow for the birdie chances that the good golfer should expect from that course.

[Len]

Pat,

Yes it's true that I haven't played TOC. And I will grant you that a draw is a nice way to deal with the wind. However, I am just talking general theory that it is preferable to play away from trouble and bring it back. And if the right side of the fairway is generally the best place to attack from, as Rich says, then your draw would have to be started dangerously close to the OB.

Hence it would appear to me that there is no decidedly obvious preference to play the draw exclusively, to the point of it influencing the ball flight patterns of the majority of golfers.

[Paul_Turner]

I agree with Rich and Len, I don't see the draw as preferable on TOC.  I'd prefer to aim centre and fade the ball into the preferred right side.  Flirting with the gorse or OB as little as possible.  And if the ball doesn't fade, your not in much trouble, unlike a blocked draw attempt.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Rich,

Being in the prefered spot, and safely getting to the prefered spot are two different issues.

While #'s 17, 16, 15 and 14 seem to favor the right side of the fairway many of the front nine holes seem to favor the left side of the fairway.

Draws seem to be more controlled in the wind then fades or slices, and when you couple this with out of bounds along the entire right side of the golf course, a draw seems to be the flight of preference, or prudence.

I'll take the draw and take my chances.

[Paul_Turner]

Perhaps a better question would be whether links golf made the draw preferential.  Wind control...

PS

Hoylake used to have the most dangerous OB (still has some) and the tactic there was definitely to play away from the OB and shape the shot back i.e fade at the 1st, draw at the 7th.  The 7th was the best, hit away from OB and draw it back to run up through the swale onto the green.

[ForkaB]

Pat

The gnarliest of the caddies at TOC will tell you that the right hand side of the outgoing holes is the preferable angle for approaching those greens, but then again, that's probably why I've never taken a caddy at St. Andrews.

[DMoriarty]

Maybe Pat is left handed.

[ForkaB]

That would explain a lot, wouldn't it, David?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

DMoriarty,

It's one thing to discuss golf and golf course architecture, it's quite another to mention methods of play which border on heresy.

[Steve Lang]

And all these years I always thought it responsible for hitting the ball straight at a target,,,, damn

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I'm with Pat on this one. I'll take the low running draw on the Old Course on a strong majority of the holes. Strategically it is a safer route going out, but how can one not want to take a chance to score--all part of the allure, of the holes coming in!

But that is the beauty of all of this--Different golfers using their strengths on the most poignant and defintive course the Game has come to know.  I like that!

Rich, A good friend, Bernie Barret was a cadie at The Old Coruse for many years. He told me that playing the draw was the best way to stay out of trouble. Tip Anderson, the famed caddie on the Old Course says the same in his and Desmond's book on the Old Course. This doesn't mean that there weren't caddies who prescribed to differing theories. It is to point out the fact that there are so many theroies how to play it. When you only get to play it for one round during a whirlwind trip that puts you in St. Andrews for part of a day, an overnight stay, and gone the next morning, like so many tours seem to do for the traveler, I could see where a caddie is going to get them in and around the course in a safe quick fashion so they can tell their stories/make their jokes, and then get a good tip!

Truthfully, youand I both know that the only way to play the Old Course is without the caddie so you can learn from the experieinces and the tragedies and successes upon the links!:)

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tommy Naccarto,

A related question is:

Do wet conditions hamper the effectiveness of a low draw thus favoring a high fade, or high draw ?

Has the low draw become extinct with the advent of irrigation systems and the "GREEN" syndrome ?

[Brian Phillips]

I would play TOC with a fade rather than a draw.  On most of the holes if you aim left ie. just left of out of bounds then if your fade doesn't work your ball will stay in bounds but on the left handside of the fairway giving a more difficult shot to the green.  If the fade does work then you land in prime position with an easier shot to the green.

If you try to hit a high draw and it stays right then you are in deep trouble and probably in gorse or on the New course with probably a blind shot to a green.

The tees on TOC are mainly hugging the right handside of the course which to me encourages a fade.  Why would you hit a high draw over the New course hoping to come back onto TOC?  If you aim over the fairway coming the other way on the left and the fade doesn't work you are still on a fairway that belongs to TOC..makes sense to me.

I am not implying that I can acheive any of the above but that is what I would try!!

Brian

[tonyt]

Left may not be optimum at TOC, but it is safe. Therefore, a fade would typically be the best shape a professional would always use, and I agree IN THEORY with those who point out the same.

BUT.. Tommy is correct when stating that the most experienced caddies around TOC, and many of my contemporaries whom have caddied there in multiple Opens plus a number of Dunhill Cups will always tell you that you must draw it of the tee around TOC.

[TEPaul]

The draw is a great shot to have but so is a fade. We all know what Hogan and Trevino (two original natural hookers) thought about draws--ie they turn into hooks too easily and that ain't good for overall scoring.

I should relate here a story by a very good pro by the name of Mike Long who was telling me once about the commencement address out of his pro school year. It was from Dutch Harrison, a crusty old pro if ever there was one. Mike was saying that pro school was so much technical stuff that he really wasn't interested in and all he wanted to do was go out and play.

He expected Dutch Harrison's commencement address to be more of the same but Dutch suantered up to the mike and said;

"Boys, let me tell you how to play this game. Don't hit the draw because it'll turn into a hook and you'll be under a f...ing bush and out of f...ing play."

And Dutch sauntered back to his seat and sat down. That was the extent of Dutch's commencement address. Mike Long thought that was some pretty fine advice.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Brian Philips,

A pushed fade/slice will be out-of-bounds, as will an excessive fade/slice, and if the wind gets any of them, they'll meet the same fate.

Fade/slices won't get the distance you want either.

Since most can't play and control the ball like Hogan and Trevino, I would think a draw, hit at the centerline of the fairway would be most advantageous flight at TOC.

TEPaul,

Did the Mike Long you referenced come from New Jersey and have red hair ?

[TEPaul]

"Did the Mike Long you referenced come from New Jersey and have red hair?"

Don't remember exactly the color of his hair but he was the pro at Garden City. Might have been the other Garden City but he was the pro at Garden City. There is another Garden City golf club--right? Unfortunately, he was also uhhhh--crazy! No joke. But, man, could that guy play!