News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.

Pages: [1]

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« on: June 07, 2021, 09:59:42 AM »
 ???


Seems like there is some question as to Willie Park Jr’s input on the golf course.


Jim Fraser tells me that there is some dispute as to Park doing the 1915 redo ?


He says it was Donald Ross..   what say you men ?
Logged

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2021, 11:04:51 AM »
What evidence does Fraser have about Park? Generally accepted history is:


Hugh Wilson (1914), Donald Ross (1916, added bunkers), Bob Cupp Jr. (Redesign, 1998)
Logged
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2021, 11:18:05 AM »
Park didn't arrive back in the US until early 1916.  Any involvement he had with any of the various built or proposed Atlantic City courses was after that date.
Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2021, 01:30:59 PM »
Steve,

Archie is talking about ACCC, not Seaview.   


Archie,

I believe Park's work was around 1920, but yes...researcher Karl Jensen recently found information naming Donald Ross as the source of multiple course revisions  in 1915.
Logged
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2021, 08:19:34 PM »
@MCirba




Oops....I forgot  the Fraser family's connection to ACCC and the reference in the caption.


https://accountryclub.com/pages/atlantic-city-country-club-history
Logged
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2021, 06:49:50 AM »
 8)


Seems my confusion lies in the discussion as to Park's input in  the design.  Prior to this week I always thought he had a fairly significant role. After talking to Jim Fraser at breakfast he told me that that Donald Ross was the guy who did the 1915 redo per the Society of Golf Course Historians...seems they posted on Facebook that it was Ross not Park.. I'm not on Facebook so can't check it out until my wife gives me her password :P

A fellow named Karl Jensen (historian?)  allegedly quoted a NYT  article that Ross did the redo and Willie didn't show til 1920

Still hoping someone straightens it out for me.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 07:24:25 AM by archie_struthers »
Logged

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2021, 09:52:03 AM »
Why don't we start at the beginning.


First 9 holes laid out by Herbert Tweedie.


Feb. 1898 Golf Magazine -


















Around April of 1898 John Reid was hired and most likely completed in the implementation of Tweedie's plans and added 9 more holes to make a full 18.  Who actually designed the additional 9 holes is unclear as the article above suggests Tweedie contemplated a full 18.


April 1898 Golf Magazine -





July 1898 The Golfer -





Nov. 1898 Golf Magazine -





July 1899 Golf Magazine -





1899 Official Golf Guide -














1900 Harper's Guide -









Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2021, 09:59:25 AM »
In its early years the course was tinkered with and lengthened a bit.


April 1901 Golf Magazine -









Sept. 1901 Golf Magazine -












Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2021, 10:10:56 AM »
Around 1909 Herbert Barker was brought in to lengthen and improve the course.


Jan. 1909 American Golfer -









Jan. 1909 Golf Magazine -







Sept. 1909 American Golfer -








Dec. 1909 Golf Magazine -











Feb. 14, 1910 New York Tribune -








Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2021, 10:28:02 AM »
Around 1912 the club purchased additional land and most likely started formulating plans for an additional 18 hole course around this time.


Donald Ross came in a few years later and made a few changes to the existing course.  This is the article discovered recently by Karl Jensen.


May 8, 1915 New York Evening Post -








It also appears that Ross was engaged to design a second 18 hole course, plans that would later be scrapped.


May 27, 1917 Philadelphia Inquirer -







Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2021, 10:40:00 AM »
Willie Park was brought in a few years later.  His work touched on the existing course as well as planning 9 additional holes.


May 24, 1919 Bridgeport Times and Evening Farmer -






Oct. 1919 Golfers Magazine -






Nov. 1919 Golfers Magazine -





Jan. 1920 Golfers Magazine -





April 1920 Golfers Magazine -






May 16, 1920 Philadelphia Inquirer -






July 25, 1920 Philadelphia Inquirer -


« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 10:47:00 AM by Sven Nilsen »
Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2021, 10:43:43 AM »
The notations in the various annual guides track the story above.


The course was noted as having 18 holes from 1899 to 1921, and 27 thereafter up through the 1938 guide.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 10:47:31 AM by Sven Nilsen »
Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2021, 10:55:04 AM »
If anyone has any additions to the narrative above, I'd love to see it. 


Especially if it relates to old aerials or anything that can help the tracking of the history of the routing.


Sven
Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2021, 12:26:49 PM »
Great stuff, Sven.  Thanks.
Logged
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2021, 12:37:05 PM »
 ;D


Swen, ditto, well done.


Thanks for sharing and I will pass it along to Jim Fraser! ;D
Logged

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2021, 02:36:03 PM »
Sven, you come up with the best material. Thanks.
Logged
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2021, 09:31:42 AM »
Quote from: Sven Nilsen on June 08, 2021, 09:59:25 AM
In its early years the course was tinkered with and lengthened a bit.


April 1901 Golf Magazine -









Sept. 1901 Golf Magazine -











Sven, Great work! Here is a 1930 aerial showing 27 holes. 





Reading through your descriptions of each architect’s recommendations,  it is very likely the 14 holes to the south of the clubhouse (in the 1930 aerial) are the holes laid out by Willie Park Jr.


Both Barker and Ross changed hole sequences more than they changed the routing.  They may have added bunkers and greens, but the 1919 routing was relatively unchanged from the 1901 map posted above. Both Barker and Ross seemed to concentrate on the first nine holes and never mentioned adding additional holes.


One of the articles on Willie Park’s work mentions he built 14 holes. 9 entirely new holes and 5 to replace the old 1, 10, 11, 15 and 16 which you can see on the 1901 map above. Today’s 1-13 follows Parks routing for the most part.  The second hole has been shortened to avoid an approach over the main road and the fifth has been lengthened using the old green site of the 2nd.  Willie’s 10th and 11th were combined into one hole. 


The 15th and 16th hole on the 1930 map (today’s 14 and 16) closely follow the 1901 map.  17 and 18 appear to be similar in 1930 to now, but none of the articles mention who built these two holes.  17 and 18 do not follow the routing of the 1901 map. 


Much of the land to the north of the clubhouse was sold off some time between 1938 (Svens golf guide) and the 1951 (aerial showing development where there was once a golf course).  The bulk of today’s course appears to be routed by Willie Park Jr. based on what I read above and cross-referencing the information with the 1901 layout.


Bret
Logged

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atlantic City CC. Which architect was there in 1915
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2021, 10:45:40 AM »
Go Willie Park!
Logged
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/
Pages: [1]
Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back