[Ryan Coles]

Have to agree with Tony.

Health education and shelter you can perhaps make a case for.

''No child left behind...........on the Struie Course.....'' is probably stretching it a bit.

[Niall C]

Maybe Nicklaus was in Dornoch, but did not play golf. It's a great base for exploring the Highlands.

But I wonder whether all those high rollers playing this previously hidden gem, starting with Tom Watson years ago, is really a good thing. It certainly had a negative effect on Joe Average's ability to play the course more than, say, once in a lifetime. Hard to fully appreciate a course from just one round, but that is all that most can afford these days. Sad to see those green fees skyrocketing, just as at TOC, which I believe should be way more accessible as well.

Ulrich

Still the best value top end greenfee in the uk. And a twilight rate for £70. Doesn't seem too bad to me.

Ryan

I don't know if you've ever been to Silloth but at a full rate of £49 during the week and £58 at weekends its not only far, far better value but is also a better golf course, IMO of course.

Niall

[Paul Gray]

Ulrich,

Whilst I genuine sympathise with your egalitarian principles, I'm not sure that Bayern at al are doing anything other than make smart tactical business decisions which will see them successfully prosper when the Spanish, English and Italian giants are going thorugh periods of boom and bust.

I see the green fee scenario as similar to that of high end and lower end restaurant pricing. Take for example the food culture in France, where the average blue collar worker really will still save up to eat in a Michelin star restaurant. How does this happen? It happens because the food culture, from a grass roots level, is so strong that good food is integral. Now contrast that with Britain, a country brimming with top end establishments but no demand from the average guy or girl. The point is that affordable, good golf, much like the affordable, good local bistro, is where the cultural imperative lies. No one demands that star chefs should charge less and so it should be in golf. To mix metaphors even more, provide the Bayern fans with a good everyday product and they'll happily save up to follow the side around Europe.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Yes, I already said that the good everyday product is integral to the cultural developments. In addition to that I believe that the pinnacle is also important, lest there be a fragmentation of the culture into "them" vs. "us". In the case of golf in a democracy, how would you think a vote to disappropriate a golf course for building a school or recreational facility for everyone would go, if there is a disconnect between "those rich guys behind the walls" and "the rest of us including our children"? In Germany you already cannot get permission for a new golf course without (amongst many other requirements) demonstrating its recreational value to the non-golfing public. Perhaps some of you guys are too wrapped in your traditional private club mindset to notice how the world is changing around you?

The average person can enjoy the pinnacle of painting or sculpture, although the Louvre or National Gallery are more expensive than their local museum with their local art. But the difference in price is not relative to the difference in quality, as it would be the case for a product without cultural value (say, a refrigerator). Of course the average person cannot OWN pinnacle art, only the richest of the rich can afford that. But that's fine, when there's a culture of sharing common cultural achievements.

Ulrich

[Adam Lawrence]

Yes, I already said that the good everyday product is integral to the cultural developments. In addition to that I believe that the pinnacle is also important, lest there be a fragmentation of the culture into "them" vs. "us". In the case of golf in a democracy, how would you think a vote to disappropriate a golf course for building a school or recreational facility for everyone would go, if there is a disconnect between "those rich guys behind the walls" and "the rest of us including our children"? In Germany you already cannot get permission for a new golf course without (amongst many other requirements) demonstrating its recreational value to the non-golfing public. Perhaps some of you guys are too wrapped in your traditional private club mindset to notice how the world is changing around you?

The average person can enjoy the pinnacle of painting or sculpture, although the Louvre or National Gallery are more expensive than their local museum with their local art. But the difference in price is not relative to the difference in quality, as it would be the case for a product without cultural value (say, a refrigerator). Of course the average person cannot OWN pinnacle art, only the richest of the rich can afford that. But that's fine, when there's a culture of sharing common cultural achievements.

Ulrich

The National Gallery is free, fwiw. As are all the key national collections in the UK.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Ooops sorry... but in no country did I have to spend more money to get into churches, castles, museums etc. than in Britain!

Ulrich

[Brent Hutto]

I wanted to see Canterbury Cathedral on my first visit to England. So I attended the Sunday morning worship service rather than taking a tour. No charge. On another year's trip I went to St Paul's for a weekday Evensong service. No cost of course for services.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I got into Leeds Castle (£24 usually) for half price by buying off someone, who was peddling his tickets in front of the entrance. Comparable castles in Germany (Wartburg, Burg Eltz) charge less than one third that price (about £7).

Ulrich

[jeffwarne]

What a great bloke. Has there ever been a greater sportsman than Jack?

Arnie was a far greater sportsman than Jack!!

Ken Venturi would disagree.

As would I.

No denying Palmer greatness or influence on the modern game. But his star didn't burn for very long, major wise.

Ridiculous
Palmer  won his last major in 1964
His "star" burned brightly until mid 2000's
He commanded the biggest galleries for 40 years at Augusta-Jack's paled in comparison.
Jack while a greater player, was NEVER more popular, and NEVER a greater sportsman than Arnie.

Jeff

Read what I said. His major star burned out quickly. A six year gap between his first in 58 and his last in 64. I believe there was a 23 gap with Jack's. These are facts.

I don't therefore agree that my opinion is ridiculous.  

It is a fact that Palmer was more popular with American fans, granted. Frank Bruno is a very popular boxer over here.

So it is a fact that Jack was a greater golfer. I just feel he was also the better sportsman and displayed better sportsmanship. He also bowed out at the right time, whereas Palmer went on for far too long and embarrassed himself toward the end in my opinion. Jack at Pebble and St Andrews was perfect.

No argument here that Jack was the greater player. (the greatest)
Jack was only admired and loved late in his career.
Arnie was the man-he brought millions into the game and ALWAYS was gracious with the fans, and just made you want to be near him and golf.
Other than the whinings of Venturi, have there ever been any complaints about Palmer's sportsmanship?

Jack was dour and never hit a bad shot that was his fault (that helped him mentally and made him great)
but in my opinion he was never close to being the sportsman that Arnie was.
Well past Arnie's major peak he was the hottest man for advertisers while Jack simply wasn't, despite his world beating skills, talent and majors tally.
later in his career that changed as his PR skills got better ,he lost weight, grew his hair, and our familiarity with him improved.
At that point he began to be admired and eventually loved, just not with the passion that Arnie fans had.
In the early 2000's When asked how Arnie had done, I once had to remind my mother-in-law that Arnie's last major win was over 40 years ago

[Ryan Coles]

Jeff

I wouldn't say Palmer displayed poor sportsmanship, far from it. He was a very steely competitor though and took losing quite badly (nothing wrong with that) and as he was the "King" often took umbrage at some young upstart taking a point off him or winning "his" majors. Jacklin summed this up well in his book.

No, I draw distinction between the two not because Arnie was a poor sport, but because according to his contemporaries and on the well known examples, Jack was exceptionally gracious in defeat. He was as Ryder Captain in 87, his famous concession to Jacklin and his battles and friendship with Watson and Player. I value this more than commercial impact.

You can't knock Palmer - he is and was the King. But I think his ego was bigger than Jack's and he's far more sentimental than Jack. When Jack said he was bowing out, he made a birdie and stayed bowed out. Arnold had umpteen last Masters and US Opens and didn't seem to care that he was chiseling it around, he just loved to milk the crowd and the crowd loved to see him. Luckily in golf all you get is cynical moaners like me if you carry on too long. In boxing you get your faculties eroded.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

It's remarkable where this thread has gone - and just from an observation that Nicklaus had played Dornoch.

[Bill_McBride]

It's remarkable where this thread has gone - and just from an observation that Nicklaus had played Dornoch.

Lots of diverse personalities on GolfClubAtlas!

[Ryan Coles]

It's remarkable where this thread has gone - and just from an observation that Nicklaus had played Dornoch.

Good old Jack.

At least if he says he's played Dornoch, you can actually believe him.

[Stan Dodd]

Mark,
I too am quite dismayed by the odd turns this thread had taken.  David started the thread because one of the great players of all time, and a golf course designer visited a highly regarded course, for the first time.  I was privileged to be there watch the man play, chat with he and his wife.
Then I watched  this thread turn in to a debate about sportsman, complete with slanderous statements about one athlete and then  inane comments on the green fees on a top flight course, I pay 420 pounds a year and play all I want, show me a better deal in the world of golf.  To statements that Jack may have been there, I must have been dreaming.

As my friend said yesterday, "some people are not happy unless they are not happy.

[Philip Gawith]

Stan, how about you post those pictures you mentioned and restore this thread to the path of righteousness?!

[Matthew Essig]

A couple of guys at North Berwick said they saw him at Gleneagles yesterday. No surprise there.

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